Accidentally playing from GUR.

[Barrie J]

Schrodinger moment here....if at the time of dropping you don't know if the original ball is lost, or OOB, what is the status of a ball dropped under 18.3?
I would suggest that it's provisionally in play.
If you took a practice swing and moved it you will be penalised - if it wasnt in play you wouldn't - so by that reverse logic it is 'in play' for the purpose of this debate.
Having dropped the ball you are entitled to proceed as the rules permit for the situation you find yourself in. This would include numerous relief options, one of which is being raised here in relation to GUR. All fine - and none require the ball to be 'struck' (?).

I don't know how the definition of a provisional ball could be more clear - please have a look at it. As to the word "struck" it is the simple past and the past participle of the verb "to strike".

 

[rulie]

I'm not sure what the issue is here? When the ball is dropped "provisionally" at the spot of the previous stroke, it is provisionally in play (other than in the teeing area) and once dropped, all options regarding GUR etc are available for that ball. If if is dropped in GUR, the player is entitlted to free relief from that area of GUR, even before he makes a stroke at the dropped ball.

 

[Colin L]

I don't know how the definition of a provisional ball could be more clear - please have a look at it. As to the word "struck" it is the simple past and the past participle of the verb "to strike".

Please be careful, Barrie. That is inappropriately patronising. The matter has been explained in different ways by 3 forum members who know what they are talking about. As you are new to the forum, you will not be aware that they are qualified referees. But now you know that, maybe you could go back to what we have said and be a bit more receptive to the explanations. Then if you are still having difficulty with what has been explained, please say so.

 

[rulefan]

I don't know how the definition of a provisional ball could be more clear - please have a look at it.

This is the definition
Another ball played in case the ball just played by the player may be:

• Out of bounds, or
• Lost outside a penalty area.

A provisional ball is not the player’s ball in play, unless it becomes the ball in play under Rule 18.3c.

Where does it mention 'struck'?

However, you need to take into account the differences between 'the ball in play', 'a ball in play provisionally' and 'playing a ball'.
They are not the same thing.

Note the distinction in rule 14 between putting a ball into play (or provisionally into play) in respect of the teeing area and elsewhere.

 

[duncan mackie]

I don't know how the definition of a provisional ball could be more clear - please have a look at it. As to the word "struck" it is the simple past and the past participle of the verb "to strike".

Thank you for the response.

Within my response to you I was trying to over a number of the points you raised in you original premise.

"An interesting question whether the player may take free relief from the GUR after dropping a ball in the GUR with the intent of playing it as a provisional. Firstly the dropped ball is not in play. The definition of a provisional ball states that it is not the ball in play unless it becomes the ball in play under 18.3c. It is not even a provisional until it is played, i.e struck (first paragraph of 18.3a). For it to become a provisional it must be struck from where the previous stroke was made (rule 14.6) Therefore, IMO, it seems unlikely that free relief would be allowed."

Specifically

1. Played and struck are not interchangeable. Please see the definition of a stroke as a starting point.
2. To consider the practical flaw in your argument consider the situation of a player who announces that he is playing a ball provisionally under 18.3 for his second stroke which has headed off towards an OOB from his current position on the fairway. He correctly references his relief area, drops a ball correctly within the rules and then causes that ball to move when making a practice swing. How do you rule and why please?

 

[Barrie J]

Thank you for the response.

Within my response to you I was trying to over a number of the points you raised in you original premise.

"An interesting question whether the player may take free relief from the GUR after dropping a ball in the GUR with the intent of playing it as a provisional. Firstly the dropped ball is not in play. The definition of a provisional ball states that it is not the ball in play unless it becomes the ball in play under 18.3c. It is not even a provisional until it is played, i.e struck (first paragraph of 18.3a). For it to become a provisional it must be struck from where the previous stroke was made (rule 14.6) Therefore, IMO, it seems unlikely that free relief would be allowed."

Specifically

1. Played and struck are not interchangeable. Please see the definition of a stroke as a starting point.
2. To consider the practical flaw in your argument consider the situation of a player who announces that he is playing a ball provisionally under 18.3 for his second stroke which has headed off towards an OOB from his current position on the fairway. He correctly references his relief area, drops a ball correctly within the rules and then causes that ball to move when making a practice swing. How do you rule and why please?

Duncan,

I think we can agree that the Definitions serve as a foundation to the Rules and as such they are fundamentally important. However, we don’t seem to be able to agree on what the definition of a provisional ball means. Therefore, it is unlikely that we will come to some sort of broader agreement, no matter how long we deliberate. So, let’s spend our time more profitably by doing something less frustrating, like playing a round of golf.

 

[duncan mackie]

Duncan,

I think we can agree that the Definitions serve as a foundation to the Rules and as such they are fundamentally important.
However, we don’t seem to be able to agree on what the definition of a provisional ball means.

The definition of a provisional ball is clear.

Your interpretation of the implications of 'a ball being played' and 'a ball in play' is what people have been trying to help with.

Rather than merely repeat the words used by others I have tried to give you a practical example to illustrate it - that you choose to avoid it is interesting.

Enjoy your golf

 

[rulie]

See link below. Barrie J may have gotten the same answer provided here!
https://ncga.org/2014/01/08/stump-rules-archives-2014/

 

[Colin L]

There's no hiding in the internet. But there's no harm in seeking an answer elsewhere if you don't like the one you're getting. Mr Kuchar is a recent trendsetter.