A question for the rules experts

[Orikoru]

“Playing a hole you don’t get a shot on”

You were talking about medals ? So there are no blobs

If you hit a ball out of the golf course then there is a penalty - you don’t just get to take it again

But it's another shot, it's not taking it again for free is it?

Don't worry, I get it, the rules are sacred and perfect and cannot be improved upon. As you were.

 

[Slab]

That's a good point to be fair. I don't know the answer.


I mean it is, because you've wasted a shot so you're now on fairway (maybe) for 2 instead of for 1. But it does sometimes feel harsh that, playing a hole you don't get a shot on, you hit one slightly weak fade, the wind blows it out of bounds, and you've basically blobbed the hole immediately from one bad shot, unless you can somehow birdie it with your second ball.

I guess that's also why people don't always hit provisionals, feels like there's no point as they'd have to birdie with the second ball, and it makes them more determined to find their original ball (provided it isn't clearly OOB of course). And they'll spend the full allotted time looking for it. As opposed to it being two off the tee, they hit a good second one, and will probably be happy enough to play that with a good chance of making bogey.

There’s definitely holes that in stableford comps I won’t reload when I’ve hit a wild 1st ball. As you say sometimes it’s just not worth it, a 2nd ball birdie on a non-stroke hole or even par on a stroke hole I can’t reach in regulation anyway
I’d rather treat that kind of shot same as red staked area, quite often there’s no discernible difference why one area of a course has red stakes and another area doesn’t

So that’d be tee shot, penalty drop (usually in a less than ideal place for the next shot) hitting 3.
So the punishment is penalty plus taking next shot from somewhere you’d rather not be, less severe than 3 off the tee and more severe than no penalty hitting 2 off the tee

And less time spent searching for 1st

 

[Orikoru]

There’s definitely holes that in stableford comps I won’t reload when I’ve hit a wild 1st ball. As you say sometimes it’s just not worth it, a 2nd ball birdie on a non-stroke hole or even par on a stroke hole I can’t reach in regulation anyway
I’d rather treat that kind of shot same as red staked area, quite often there’s no discernible difference why one area of a course has red stakes and another area doesn’t

So that’d be tee shot, penalty drop (usually in a less than ideal place for the next shot) hitting 3.
So the punishment is penalty plus taking next shot from somewhere you’d rather not be, less severe than 3 off the tee and more severe than no penalty hitting 2 off the tee

And less time spent searching for 1st

Yeah that sounds reasonable to me. They brought in that 'local rule' for out of bounds where you can drop, but you can't use it in comps/matches, plus it was a 2-shot penalty drop instead of 1 - so was completely pointless bringing it in really.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

But it's another shot, it's not taking it again for free is it?

Don't worry, I get it, the rules are sacred and perfect and cannot be improved upon. As you were.

Where is the penalty shot ?

You hit it out of the park - you are given a penalty shot , what you do then is up to you but your penalty for hitting it OB or losing a ball is 1 shot penalty not two shots but just the one

The issue is you appear to be looking to change the rules to dumb it down , to make it less punishment for when you mess up

Nothing is perfect but any rule change that some look to do is about reducing a punishment because they don’t think it’s “fair”

 

[Orikoru]

Where is the penalty shot ?

You hit it out of the park - you are given a penalty shot , what you do then is up to you but your penalty for hitting it OB or losing a ball is 1 shot penalty not two shots but just the one

The issue is you appear to be looking to change the rules to dumb it down , to make it less punishment for when you mess up

Nothing is perfect but any rule change that some look to do is about reducing a punishment because they don’t think it’s “fair”

The point is it's like a double punishment, you already have to hit again from the same spot, hence a shot has been wasted because you haven't advanced your ball anywhere - then it's a penalty on top of that. And that basically kills your chance of scoring on the hole if it's Stableford, just for one bad shot. It's like in football when they changed the rules so you didn't have "double jeopardy" of a penalty and a red card didn't they?

It was also to speed up play as I said in the first place.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

The point is it's like a double punishment, you already have to hit again from the same spot, hence a shot has been wasted because you haven't advanced your ball anywhere - then it's a penalty on top of that. And that basically kills your chance of scoring on the hole if it's Stableford, just for one bad shot. It's like in football when they changed the rules so you didn't have "double jeopardy" of a penalty and a red card didn't they?

It was also to speed up play as I said in the first place.

It’s not double punishment - you get one penalty shot

Then you play your next shot

And if the ball is OB then you are taking another shot anyway - no speeding up with play

There has to be a penalty for losing a ball or hitting out of the golf course

That’s a one shot penalty

 

[Slab]

Purely for discussion
Why the need for a more severe penalty for crossing an OOB white stake area (sometimes internal) as opposed to crossing a red stake area ?

In both cases the ball may/may not be lost
Maybe make same penalty relief options for both with the exception of not playing as it lies for white stake area

 

[Backache]

It’s not double punishment - you get one penalty shot

Then you play your next shot

And if the ball is OB then you are taking another shot anyway - no speeding up with play

There has to be a penalty for losing a ball or hitting out of the golf course

That’s a one shot penalty

The term is stroke and distance, the penalty is both the stroke and the distance.
Not to mention the financial penalty of a lost ball

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Purely for discussion
Why the need for a more severe penalty for crossing an OOB white stake area (sometimes internal) as opposed to crossing a red stake area ?

In both cases the ball may/may not be lost
Maybe make same penalty relief options for both with the exception of not playing as it lies for white stake area

it’s why imo a course should never have internal OB

OB should just be the external boundaries of the course - any issues inside should all be hazard areas

And imo it’s different when hitting a ball out of the golf course

 

[Swango1980]

it’s why imo a course should never have internal OB

OB should just be the external boundaries of the course - any issues inside should all be hazard areas

And imo it’s different when hitting a ball out of the golf course

The whole point of internal out of bounds is to primarily stop golfers taking short cuts using other holes, both making the hole they play much easier whilst also endangering other golfers.

That isn't going to be solved by penalty areas.

 

[wjemather]

This was mentioned on a Rick Shiels podcast a while back, but I think it would be good if they removed the 'three off the tee' penalty. i.e. if your first shot is out of bounds, and you have to hit another tee shot, you are there for 2 instead of 3. Benefits would be that people are more likely to hit a provisional and won't spend as long looking for their first ball if the provisional is in good shape, as it'll only be one shot lost. Improving speed of play on medal days for sure.

For many reasons, this would be completely incongruous with how the rules do (and should) work. It would also certainly not speed up play; quite the opposite would be true, owing to to all the extra provisional balls being hit/searched for/collected and people walking back to play another without penalty because it's preferable to attempting the shot they have - there would need to be free relief from pretty much everything (bad lies, penalty areas, bunkers, trees, etc.) with a drop on/near the fairway to ensure finding the original ball in play isn't worse than losing it.

 

[bobmac]

I have no problems with hitting a provisional or 3 off the tee but for those who do.....
How about adopting the system used in tennis where you get a first and second service/drive?
If your first drive is no good, duffed/trees/deep rough/OOB etc, you get the option of playing again with no penalty so playing your second shot. If you elect to use this option, you must play on with the second ball. If that ball is lost, then it's stroke and distance as normal.

 

[HampshireHog]

Yes, but the original point is not a place that wasted everyone's time by walking back to that place, or writing off your card. I think the RoG would be improved by having such a rule other than then having it effectively denied by the handicapping authorities.

Maybe an additional shot penalty for walking back would encourage someone to take a provisional if in any doubt?

TBH I don’t see people walking back often?

 

[D-S]

I have no problems with hitting a provisional or 3 off the tee but for those who do.....
How about adopting the system used in tennis where you get a first and second service/drive?
If your first drive is no good, duffed/trees/deep rough/OOB etc, you get the option of playing again with no penalty so playing your second shot. If you elect to use this option, you must play on with the second ball. If that ball is lost, then it's stroke and distance as normal.

That’ll really speed up the game as half the field regularly hit 2 balls off the tee and have to go and pick up their first ball before going to their second.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

So where do you suggest it should be dropped?

The non-competition rule Model Local Rule E-5 is perfect, and when you read it, it clearly states the areas for dropping. We use it on our society comps to speed up play, and players still think there are harshly done, when they hit 200+ yards and just goes OOB, I say you can drop up to 2 clubs on the fairway where the ball is OOB, and when I say you are playing 4 from there, they look at me as if i'm mad. So I just say or you can play 3 of the tee, and you can here the clogs in their heads trying to work out what to do.

 

[rulie]

I have no problems with hitting a provisional or 3 off the tee but for those who do.....
How about adopting the system used in tennis where you get a first and second service/drive?
If your first drive is no good, duffed/trees/deep rough/OOB etc, you get the option of playing again with no penalty so playing your second shot. If you elect to use this option, you must play on with the second ball. If that ball is lost, then it's stroke and distance as normal.

That's what's called a mulligan or breakfast ball in the US.

 

[clubchamp98]

Yeah that sounds reasonable to me. They brought in that 'local rule' for out of bounds where you can drop, but you can't use it in comps/matches, plus it was a 2-shot penalty drop instead of 1 - so was completely pointless bringing it in really.

The problem with that was you could drop on the fairway adjacent to where you went oob.

That was never getting accepted.

If dropped 2CLs from boundary or in rough where you lost your ball it might be accepted.
You would always have the option of going back to the tee or last place.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

The problem with that was you could drop on the fairway adjacent to where you went oob.

That was never getting accepted.

If dropped 2CLs from boundary or in rough where you lost your ball it might be accepted.
You would always have the option of going back to the tee or last place.

This is the shortsightedness of it. There are playing 4, how much more punishment do you want to give them, especially if this rough happens to be 12 inch cabbage

 

[clubchamp98]

This is the shortsightedness of it. There are playing 4, how much more punishment do you want to give them, especially if this rough happens to be 12 inch cabbage

It might be the only fairway they hit all day.

Part of the game is hitting off the tee.

It will come in imo sooner or later .

But would only be playing 3 from the rough.

 

[chrisd]

The non-competition rule Model Local Rule E-5 is perfect, and when you read it, it clearly states the areas for dropping. We use it on our society comps to speed up play, and players still think there are harshly done, when they hit 200+ yards and just goes OOB, I say you can drop up to 2 clubs on the fairway where the ball is OOB, and when I say you are playing 4 from there, they look at me as if i'm mad. So I just say or you can play 3 of the tee, and you can here the clogs in their heads trying to work out what to do.

To be fair Steve, I'm with you on this one - saves time walking back, realistic penalty, not likely to go back and put another ball oob.

Blue in Munich and I played in Bermuda a few years back and we were paired up with two Americans, I hit into an area which was just in oob when we got there and the Americans were gobsmacked that we don't play to E-5.