A question for the rules experts

[rulie]

Picking up the issue and question I raised in another thread.

I get to my ball in the rough and can see it is precariously balanced on some long grass. I judge that it is effectively KOVC that by simply taking a stance my ball will move.

The current rule is that that is tough - and I am penalised.

I'm thinking what would be the issue if I could call a playing companion over to witness the situation. If he agreed that it was effectively KOVC that the ball will move no matter how careful I am when taking a stance then he watches me take a stance and if it moves I am allowed to replace it as close as possible to its original position (let's say the rule is within 6") in a place where it will be much less likely to move when I take a stance. If after placing my ball the ball moves - I am penalized at that point - as per the current rule.

It's not going to happen as a rule change but that's not the point of this thread.

And I'm one of those who respond to bleats of 'unfairness' with what was said to me way back then by an auld fella when I'd moaned of an unfairness...'nobody said golf was supposed to be fair'

If the ball moves, and you caused it to move, it's a penalty. Replace it, and move on. Probably not going to happen more than once in your life, so not a big deal.
As the song say, "Some days are diamonds, some days are stones."

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If the ball moves, and you caused it to move, it's a penalty. Replace it, and move on. Probably not going to happen more than once in your life, so not a big deal.
As the song say, "Some days are diamonds, some days are stones."

I’m ok with that…especially as it is pretty consistent with my ball ending up in a horrid hole where a fairway divot hasn’t been replaced. Tough I’d say to that, so tough I accept for my scenario posed.

 

[Neilds]

Not sure you have thought this through properly, what about coming to rest 2 inches behind a marker post in the middle of the fairway, a chip to the side or a penatlty shot ?

Tough luck. We are all quick to moan on a bad bounce or a perfect drive that ends in a divot but when we get a lucky bounce off a tree to stay in bounds , or on the fairway we never think about moving the ball into the rough . Luck works both ways and would even itself out throughout the round.

 

[salfordlad]

Tough luck. We are all quick to moan on a bad bounce or a perfect drive that ends in a divot but when we get a lucky bounce off a tree to stay in bounds , or on the fairway we never think about moving the ball into the rough . Luck works both ways and would even itself out throughout the round.

Agree that it evens out, but not necessarily within a round. On my experience, within a round, it can drive a couple of strokes either way easily and much less frequently as much as 4-5 strokes.

 

[Deleted member 35927]

Tough luck. We are all quick to moan on a bad bounce or a perfect drive that ends in a divot but when we get a lucky bounce off a tree to stay in bounds , or on the fairway we never think about moving the ball into the rough . Luck works both ways and would even itself out throughout the round.

Thats not how luck works. You could be continually unlucky, it doesn't even out., just a saying that people can relate to on an emotional level, but really just meaningless

 

[Colin L]

Much of the bad luck I experience on the golf course is probably self-inflicted.

 

[cliveb]

Thats not how luck works. You could be continually unlucky, it doesn't even out., just a saying that people can relate to on an emotional level, but really just meaningless

Is luck a random thing?
If it is, then by the laws of probability that's precisely how it works: in the long run (which may well extend far beyond a single round of golf) it evens out. An extended run of bad (or good) luck is equivalent to tossing a long sequence of heads. Theoretically possible but extremely unlikely.

 

[clubchamp98]

When playing well I get good luck.
Playing poorly I always get bad luck.

So if you play better more than poorly your lucky.

 

[Pants]

If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have any luck at all

 

[Colin L]

If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have any luck at all

Sounds like a topic for an exam essay.

 

[Backache]

Is luck a random thing?
If it is, then by the laws of probability that's precisely how it works: in the long run (which may well extend far beyond a single round of golf) it evens out. An extended run of bad (or good) luck is equivalent to tossing a long sequence of heads. Theoretically possible but extremely unlikely.

OK , as a somewhat abstruse diversion to the main topic. If luck is random it does not have to even out, it will only even out only if the probability of good and bad luck are equal.

Take a putt, any putt heading to the hole that is randomly diverted by something uneven will head away from the hole. If a putt is missing the hole there are still far more paths that it can take that are away from the hole than there are paths on which it can be diverted towards the hole. Ergo you are are more likely to get bad luck than good luck. The better the putter you are the more likely your initial putt is to be heading towards the hole so you are more likely to get bad luck than a poor putter as well. So not only is good and bad luck unevenly distributed it will not apply equally to everyone.

 

[cliveb]

OK , as a somewhat abstruse diversion to the main topic. If luck is random it does not have to even out, it will only even out only if the probability of good and bad luck are equal.

Take a putt, any putt heading to the hole that is randomly diverted by something uneven will head away from the hole. If a putt is missing the hole there are still far more paths that it can take that are away from the hole than there are paths on which it can be diverted towards the hole. Ergo you are are more likely to get bad luck than good luck. The better the putter you are the more likely your initial putt is to be heading towards the hole so you are more likely to get bad luck than a poor putter as well. So not only is good and bad luck unevenly distributed it will not apply equally to everyone.

Ok fair point. I was thinking only about good and bad luck being equally likely.

I guess another example would be if you stripe a drive down the middle of the fairway: any random bounce that takes it away from the centre is basically bad luck.

 

[Deleted member 35927]

Ok fair point. I was thinking only about good and bad luck being equally likely.

I guess another example would be if you stripe a drive down the middle of the fairway: any random bounce that takes it away from the centre is basically bad luck.

Your confusing luck and probability.

Two different things.

 

[clubchamp98]

OK , as a somewhat abstruse diversion to the main topic. If luck is random it does not have to even out, it will only even out only if the probability of good and bad luck are equal.

Take a putt, any putt heading to the hole that is randomly diverted by something uneven will head away from the hole. If a putt is missing the hole there are still far more paths that it can take that are away from the hole than there are paths on which it can be diverted towards the hole. Ergo you are are more likely to get bad luck than good luck. The better the putter you are the more likely your initial putt is to be heading towards the hole so you are more likely to get bad luck than a poor putter as well. So not only is good and bad luck unevenly distributed it will not apply equally to everyone.

Yes the Bobble theory!

Putt online if it bobbles either left or right it will miss.

Putt off line if it bobbles towards the hole it may go in

 

[Pants]

Ergo you are are more likely to get bad luck than good luck. The better the putter you are the more likely your initial putt is to be heading towards the hole so you are more likely to get bad luck than a poor putter as well.

QED

 

[cliveb]

Your confusing luck and probability.

Two different things.

Sort of. The mistake I made was thinking that good and bad luck were equally likely, and then applying probability theory to that.

 

[Deleted member 35927]

Sort of. The mistake I made was thinking that good and bad luck were equally likely, and then applying probability theory to that.

Luck doesnt really exist, it's just a way for some to rationalise the randomness of life.

 

[bobmac]

Luck doesn't really exist, it's just a way for some to rationalise the randomness of life.

Yeup.
There is no grand design, no great plan, no master strategy, if there was, kids wouldn't get cancer.
Sometimes, stuff just happens for no reason.

 

[cliveb]

Luck doesnt really exist, it's just a way for some to rationalise the randomness of life.

Yes of course, life is full of random events over which we have no control.
Some of those random events result in something to our advantage. (A winning lottery ticket, for example).
We really should think of a word for that....

 

[Deleted member 35927]

Yes of course, life is full of random events over which we have no control.
Some of those random events result in something to our advantage. (A winning lottery ticket, for example).
We really should think of a word for that....

yes, you can describe it as luck if you wish, but luck itself is just a construct that we use to put some kind of meaning to life's often random events.