3 minutes to find ball

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The search starts when the player reaches the area where he believes it is likely to be.
I would say 2 was not searching initially, 3 was.
I would suggest Player 1 is covered by 18.2a(1)/3 - Failure to identify ball

Thanks for that guidance - though I am not sure why you would rule on 2 and 3 differently. In both cases a player is heading to the area that another player has told him his balls lies - but on the way to that area casually checks in the rough along the way - both looking for other balls and just checking in case the player has got the area wrong. Because if the ball cannot be found in the area identified for the search the player will most likely walk back along the way he has come through the rough (Scenario 2 more specifically but also likely in Scenario 3).

I have read your rule decision suggestion for Player 1 and yes - that would work. Player 1 (Eagle-Eyes) was me. I should have positively identified what I thought was my ball before starting to help Player 3 look for his in the trees - because as soon as I looked and spotted what thought was my ball my 3mins had started. That we found Player 3's ball very quickly (as I was correct in my identification of where Player's 3 ball was likely to be) I was able to realise quickly that what I thought was my ball wasn't - but spotted it almost immediately a couple of yards further on - and within the 3 minutes. But if I hadn't - then back to the tee for me

 

[Slab]

Thanks for that guidance - though I am not sure why you would rule on 2 and 3 differently. In both cases a player is heading to the area that another player has told him his balls lies -

But didn't you change the scenario (& question) for player 2 when you said
quote - from post 498 "But if it had been Player 2 who had spotted line and position of his ball, and when he got to where he thought the ball was he didn't find it immediately. When did his search for the ball start?"

A set of circumstances you didn't apply to player 3. So your statement in green no longer applies, does it

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

But didn't you change the scenario (& question) for player 2 when you said
quote - from post 498 "But if it had been Player 2 who had spotted line and position of his ball, and when he got to where he thought the ball was he didn't find it immediately. When did his search for the ball start?"

A set of circumstances you didn't apply to player 3. So your statement in green no longer applies, does it

Sorry you are right. I did change the Player 2 scenario from what actually happened.

In the actual Player 2 scenario, Player 1 did the 'spotting and walking' through the rough to where he had spotted the ball come to rest - and with his guidance Player 2 found his ball almost immediately. So there was no issue whatsoever. That Player 1 might possibly be deemed to be looking for Player 2s ball being irrelevant and not counting towards the 3min search time. So actual Player 2 scenario - I agree - no problems as @rulefan says.

I changed the actual scenario to ask if it had not been Player 1 spotting and walking - but Player 2 himself. So the question in the tweaked scenario is - does looking for a ball in the rough along the line towards the area you (or another player) are pretty sure the ball is, count as searching and so to be included in the 3mins? If it would count (and that player was me) I might be inclined to say as I start walking the line in the rough towards the area - I am walking through the rough - I am not searching for my ball

Sorry if I seem to be going to absurd lengths trying to understand this, but I have this morning received an Email from the club captain asking for my view on what happened in the very contentious and unfortunate incident that happened earlier in my round on Saturday to one of my group - that player having raised a formal complaint with the club. I will only be replying on the facts of what I saw and heard, but I would like to know if I was right or wrong in what I said to the players involved at the time.

I am specifically interested in whether a player - not himself seeing where his ball is deemed to have gone but being told by other players where they are pretty darned sure it is - can bee deemed to be looking for his ball if he is scuffing through rough not really very near where he is being told his ball is as he waits for players in another group to get out of the way so he can look where he is being told to look.

 

[rulefan]

Sorry if I seem to be going to absurd lengths trying to understand this, but I have this morning received an Email from the club captain asking for my view on what happened in the very contentious and unfortunate incident that happened earlier in my round on Saturday to one of my group - that player having raised a formal complaint with the club. I will only be replying on the facts of what I saw and heard, but I would like to know if I was right or wrong in what I said to the players involved at the time.

Could you please remind me of exactly what that situation was or give me the post #. I don't want to try and answer the wrong question

 

[Slab]

SILH is this it?

In order to search in the general area he believed his ball would be the player would cause interference to another group
Player therefore waits for that group to clear
While waiting he’s scuffing around the rough"not really very near" looking for a ball rather than the ball (i.e looking for any ball but not his ball)
Does this search count towards his 3 minutes?

 

[rulefan]

If that is the question, the answer is that it not included in the 3 minutes.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Could you please remind me of exactly what that situation was or give me the post #. I don't want to try and answer the wrong question

Quite separate from the 3 scenarios already outlined - on an earlier hole (10th - which as the 11th parallel coming back separated and screened from 10th by line of mature trees)

I didn't go into detail of the confrontation...it is similar to Scenario 3. But as you are kind to be offering your guidance - and Captain has asked for same - I'll explain, It's a bit long and convoluted - sorry.

Player 2 pulls tee shot on the 10th hard left and low towards the trees and towards the 11th fairway. Neither I nor Player 2 sees where his ball has gone. Player 3 tells us that the group behind coming off the 9th green had stopped as we teed off and from their elevated position coming down from the 9th green they had said that they had seen Player 2s ball ping across the trees onto the 11th fairway. They were certain.

Player 3 had stuck his ball further down in the trees. I was 250yds straight down the middle (as usual )

Confident that Player 2 would find his ball on the 11th fairway I went off with Player 3 to look for his in the trees. After a couple of minutes looking Player 3 and I had decided Player 3 ball lost (he had played a provisional so we were OK with that) and heard a bit of commotion behind. We went back to where we expected to find Player 2 with his ball. He was standing at the edge of the 11th fairway - Player 3 and I could see two balls plain as day on the fairway.

Player 2 looked to be standing at the side of the 11th fairway waiting for a group on the 11th to play up and past what we (P3 and myself) thought would be Player 2s ball (one of the two we saw) - he was adamant on that when questioned. What I saw was Player 2 not searching and waiting to go to the 2 balls to identify which was his - he and us being told by group behind us that his ball was definitely on the 11th fairway. He was telling the group on the 11th that one of the balls was his - they were saying that that was not the case - they were theirs. The group on the 11th got to the two balls - identified them as theirs and played them.

Player 2 then looks to us and wonders...Player 3 walks towards Player 2, and just in the first cut of rough near to where the balls on the fairway had sat was Player 2s ball. He tells Player 2 - standing a few yards away where his ball is.

Having heard that being said, a player from the group playing the 11th walked back towards Player 2 telling him that if he now played that ball, then he was a cheat as he had exceeded his 3 minutes search time, and that he would report P2 to the committee for cheating. Big argument and upset ensues. Player 2 claiming he had had to wait for the group on the 11th to play up so that he himself could confirm that the balls on the fairway were that group's and neither was his - and check 1st cut other side of fairway. Player in the other group saying that Player 2 had been looking for his ball in the rough further up the 11th and that by doing that he had been searching and by doing so had now exceeded his 3 minutes - though where he was said to have been looking was not really anywhere near where he had been told his ball was on the 11th fairway. But as Player 3 and myself had not been there we did not see that and so could not tell P2 he was looking in the wrong place altogether - if indeed he was looking - confused having been told two completely contradictory things - ball is on fairway - neither ball on fairway his...

I got involved as I was marking Player 2's card - and as the long standing (rulie) member (who I know well as a golfing friend) doing the accusing said - I should know the rules...

I explained as best I could to our player - that I had not seen all that had happened - and that I had to trust what he was saying. He insisted he was not a cheat and asked me to put down his score for the hole. I said that I had to take his word on the matter and did so. I was rather reluctant as I know the accusing player well. I know he knows the rules well. He is a real stalwart of the club and very well respected. etc I didn't think he would be saying what he was saying unless he was certain. But I felt I had to take P2s word on it.

As it happens, and not surprisingly P2, blew up - and as we walked up the 18th I advised him to NR the 10th - have the discussion with that other player - but keep OK comp wise. He agreed. But as we were walking onto the green he said he'd changed his mind and wanted his score put down for the 10th. I went through what it might mean - but he was very upset at being called a cheat in front of 4 other players (and the group behind us) - and so I changed it back and signed his card.

And there we are - sorry it is so convoluted and lengthy.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

SILH is this it?

In order to search in the general area he believed his ball would be the player would cause interference to another group
Player therefore waits for that group to clear
While waiting he’s scuffing around the rough"not really very near" looking for a ball rather than the ball (i.e looking for any ball but not his ball)
Does this search count towards his 3 minutes?

This is the bit I did not know about until afterwards...but if he was looking for his ball where he was said to be looking, then he was looking in the completely wrong place but did not know that - and P3 and I were off looking for P3's ball so couldn't correct him.

As it happens I think P2's complaint to the club is more about the aggressive and very accusatory nature of the way he was being told in front of 7 other members, that he was deliberately cheating and was therefore a cheat. He still doesn't think he was cheating...

 

[Slab]

This is the bit I did not know about until afterwards...but if he was looking for his ball where he was said to be looking, then he was looking in the completely wrong place but did not know that - and P3 and I were off looking for P3's ball so couldn't correct him.

Didn’t we have this very thing earlier in the thread?

During a search a ball is found & Player 2 can’t immediately identify it, search clock is paused/suspended, when safe to do so the ball is identified as not Player 2’s, search clock restarts at that point with remaining time still available to conduct search (I'm sure rulefan will correct this if wrong or this isn't a good enough reason to suspend the clock)

Then wouldn't it depend on how long it was before Player 3 found another ball to stop the clock again for that one to be identified and if the aggregate time was more or less than 3 minutes



I guess Player 2 will need to state to the committee's satisfaction that while he was seen scuffing around, whether he was also looking for his ball because he believed it might not be one of the ones on the fairway or if he was just searching but with no intent to find his ball

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Didn’t we have this very thing earlier in the thread?

During a search a ball is found & Player 2 can’t immediately identify it, search clock is paused/suspended, when safe to do so the ball then ball is identified as not Player 2’s, search clock restarts at that point with remaining time still available to conduct search (I'm sure rulefan will correct this if wrong)

Then wouldn't it depend on how long it was before Player 3 found another ball to stop the clock again for that one to be identified and if the aggregate time was more or less than 3 minutes



I guess Player 2 will need to state to the committee's satisfaction that while he was seen scuffing around, whether he was also looking for his ball because he believed it might not be one of the ones on the fairway or if he was just searching but with no intent to find his ball

I stress that our Player 2 had been told by the group on the 11th that neither of the balls he was seeing on the fairway was his. Maybe he didn't believe them and wanted to check himself - but had to wait. Problem is I cannot see into his head. He may have believed them - he might even have done a very quick check and then got out of the way - and may have been waiting to absolutely confirm or look other side of fairway. I just don't know. In either case our player was adamant that he had stopped looking within his time and his ball was found within his time. Whatever - he was told that his search in the rough beforehand and what he subsequently done had used up his 3minutes. Q anger and accusation...

5mins I think all would have been OK...

 

[Slab]

I stress that our Player 2 had been told by the group on the 11th that neither of the balls he was seeing on the fairway was his. Maybe he didn't believe them and wanted to check himself - but had to wait. Problem is I cannot see into his head. He may have believed them - he might even have done a very quick check and then got out of the way - and may have been waiting to absolutely confirm or look other side of fairway. I just don't know. In either case our player was adamant that he had stopped looking within his time and his ball was found within his time. Whatever - he was told that his search in the rough beforehand and what he subsequently done had used up his 3minutes. Q anger and accusation...

5mins I think all would have been OK...

Sounds like Piccadilly circus

How did the group playing 11th manage to tell player 2 the two balls on the fairway categorically did not belong to player 2 if they weren’t in that area yet. Were they shouting down from their own tee?



edit: Wouldn't player 2 have the option of playing two balls following the correct process for each and asking committee to rule on it. Surely that would have satisfied the group on 11th?

 

[rulefan]

Have I got this right?

P2 maintained and other groups said, that his ball was on the 11th fairway.
group behind .... said that they had seen Player 2s ball ... onto the 11th fairway. They were certain.
he and us being told by group behind us that his ball was definitely on the 11th fairway.

If that is correct then P2 was right in waiting for the other group to get to their balls.

If the players on the 11th told him his ball was on their fairway why would he be searching for his ball in the rough?
The charge of cheating is very serious and if repeated without convincing evidence that P2 was searching where he had reason to believe his ball was, the Committee should take action against the accuser. The onus is on the accuser to prove his case.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Have I got this right?

P2 maintained and other groups said, that his ball was on the 11th fairway.
group behind .... said that they had seen Player 2s ball ... onto the 11th fairway. They were certain.
he and us being told by group behind us that his ball was definitely on the 11th fairway.

None of my group knew where P2's ball had gone. It was the group behind that told us that they'd seen it ping off the trees onto the 11th (though obviously now they could not actually have seen it come to rest on the fairway)

If that is correct then P2 was right in waiting for the other group to get to their balls.

That other group said they'd told him the balls on the fairway were theirs - and I believe (but not 100% certain) that they said they'd seen him check the balls on the fairway then stand back.

If the players on the 11th told him his ball was on their fairway why would he be searching for his ball in the rough?

The other group said they told him that neither ball was his - and that explained to them why he then looked to have gone off looking in the rough

The charge of cheating is very serious and if repeated without convincing evidence that P2 was searching where he had reason to believe his ball was, the Committee should take action against the accuser.

This is what upset P2 most. My conjecture - combining what I know and what I was told later.

P2 went to the 11th fairway as directed by group behind us and saw two balls. He saw group coming up 11th and so nipped into the fairway for a quick check. Group shouted up telling him that balls were theirs, so he had a very quick look and neither looked like his - and beat a quick retreat as 3rd player in that group was waiting to play up. He was now completely confused as he had been told his ball was on that fairway. As the group played up 11th he had a look in the rough (in quite the wrong place as it happens).

As the group on the 11th arrived at the balls on the fairway, P2 went back and stood by the side of the fairway waiting for them to confirm the balls - or admit that one was his. Maybe he was also thinking of looking other side of fairway (I don't know that). They confirmed the balls were theirs; played their shots and walked on. P2 now baffled and not having a clue what to do or where to look - this is when I and P3 turned up and almost immediately found his ball in the rough just yards from where he was standing and told him - but nowhere near the area of rough he had been looking in.

This was overheard - and as P2 went to his ball and got ready to play the member on the group on the 11th came back and made the accusation of cheating if he played the ball just found as they had seen him looking for his ball in the rough and his 3mins search time was up...

 

[Slab]

This is what upset P2 most. My conjecture - combining what I know and what I was told later.

P2 went to the 11th fairway as directed by group behind us and saw two balls. He saw group coming up 11th and so nipped into the fairway for a quick check. Group shouted up telling him that balls were theirs, so he had a very quick look and neither looked like his - and beat a quick retreat as 3rd player in that group was waiting to play up. He was now completely confused as he had been told his ball was on that fairway. As the group played up 11th he had a look in the rough (in quite the wrong place as it happens).

As the group on the 11th arrived at the balls on the fairway, P2 went back and stood by the side of the fairway waiting for them to confirm the balls - or admit that one was his. Maybe he was also thinking of looking other side of fairway (I don't know that). They confirmed the balls were theirs; played their shots and walked on. P2 now baffled and not having a clue what to do or where to look - this is when I and P3 turned up and almost immediately found his ball in the rough just yards from where he was standing and told him - but nowhere near the area of rough he had been looking in.

This was overheard - and as P2 went to his ball and got ready to play the member on the group on the 11th came back and made the accusation of cheating if he played the ball just found as they had seen him looking for his ball in the rough and his 3mins search time was up...

edit; reply is based on your conjecture scenario:

So he did actually look briefly at the two balls and couldn’t identify one as his ball before retreating to allow a player to play up

And despite not being able to ID his ball as one of those two on the fairway during this brief look (& now in possession of conflicting info from players playing behind and ahead as to the ownership of the two balls) He then decides not to look for his ball anywhere else but bizarrely instead of making any other search effort for his ball he goes off to a different area of rough in order to specifically search for other lost balls and not look for his ball, because he intends to go back for a 2nd opinion on the two fairway balls in case one actually is his!

Nothing like putting your eggs in one basket and I’m sure that aside from the rules aspect there's prob more than just me thinking how does a ball search leave Player 2; 'completely confused, baffled and clueless'

 

[Colin L]

I am trying to assemble the facts of the matter in my mind and realise it will take time - which is a function of the complications of the situation and the state of my brain. The immediate reaction is to be appalled that the player in the other group should confront another player in the middle of a competition with an accusation of cheating. But that doesn't answer the basic question. I expect Rulefan will be back with his view well before me as I am only just starting on it, but I'll give it some thought.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

edit; reply is based on your conjecture scenario:

So he did actually look briefly at the two balls and couldn’t identify one as his ball before retreating to allow a player to play up

And despite not being able to ID his ball as one of those two on the fairway during this brief look (& now in possession of conflicting info from players playing behind and ahead as to the ownership of the two balls) He then decides not to look for his ball anywhere else but bizarrely instead of making any other search effort for his ball he goes off to a different area of rough in order to specifically search for other lost balls and not look for his ball, because he intends to go back for a 2nd opinion on the two fairway balls in case one actually is his!

Nothing like putting your eggs in one basket and I’m sure that aside from the rules aspect there's prob more than just me thinking how does a ball search leave Player 2; 'completely confused, baffled and clueless'

I have been told by the accusing player that P2 looked to have had a quick look. P2 did not tell me this. Maybe he did lookbut was unable to confirm one way or the other without marking and moving both balls - and he was under pressure by the group playing the 11th to not do that and they were calling out that the balls were theirs - so he retreated back to the side of the fairway - unsure. Remember - P2 was told that his ball was on the 11th fairway - he did not really know where on the fairway it was likely to be other than an indication from the group behind us as they pointed him in the general direction. So not being able to 100% confirm that neither ball on the 11th was his; and not really knowing where else to look - he tried looking in an area of rough towards the 11th green - the wrong area but not I suppose an impossible area given he didn't have much idea where to look now if neither ball was his - and neither I nor P3 were about to help him or guide him.

Only when we arrived were we able to redirect his search to where we thought he should be looking - given that the other group has confirmed neither ball on the 11th fairway was his - and we found it almost straight away.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I am trying to assemble the facts of the matter in my mind and realise it will take time - which is a function of the complications of the situation and the state of my brain. The immediate reaction is to be appalled that the player in the other group should confront another player in the middle of a competition with an accusation of cheating. But that doesn't answer the basic question. I expect Rulefan will be back with his view well before me as I am only just starting on it, but I'll give it some thought.

I know pretty much why the player ahead took the stance he did. He is good on the rules and has been getting very fed up with the casual attitude of many members to them- and deliberate flouting of them - in competitions. In many ways he is a man to your (@rulefan's) heart. But it was not at all pleasant. As mentioned - I tried to get P2 to NR the 10th as we were finishing as his round was 'ton-up' off his 15 h/cap - he said OK - then changed his mind due primarily to the accusation.

 

[rulefan]

As someone suggested earlier, I am beginning to think the whole thing hinges on how much time he actually spent looking at a ball or for his ball. I don't mean elapsed time but looking briefly at the two balls and then looking in an area of rough towards the 11th green.

The charge of cheating cannot stand up unless it can be shown that the player knowingly took more that 3 minutes actual search time.

Edit:
The rule does not require the player to be searching anywhere in particular. That is a constraint on continuing with a possible provisional (viz estimated to be)

 

[Slab]

I have been told by the accusing player that P2 looked to have had a quick look. P2 did not tell me this. Maybe he did lookbut was unable to confirm one way or the other without marking and moving both balls - and he was under pressure by the group playing the 11th to not do that and they were calling out that the balls were theirs - so he retreated back to the side of the fairway - unsure. Remember - P2 was told that his ball was on the 11th fairway - he did not really know where on the fairway it was likely to be other than an indication from the group behind us as they pointed him in the general direction. So not being able to 100% confirm that neither ball on the 11th was his; and not really knowing where else to look - he tried looking in an area of rough towards the 11th green - the wrong area but not I suppose an impossible area given he didn't have much idea where to look now if neither ball was his - and neither I nor P3 were about to help him or guide him.

Only when we arrived were we able to redirect his search to where we thought he should be looking - given that the other group has confirmed neither ball on the 11th fairway was his - and we found it almost straight away.

I hope rulefan & colin etc don’t mind if I continue to comment on the scenario, in the rules section, leaving the real work to them

I can’t help wonder what P2 thought about seeing 2 balls on the fairway and 2 players and himself each looking for balls on the fairway. Basic numbers says 2 into 3 don’t go, so someone is missing a ball.. but it didn’t occur to P2 that it could be him missing out especially now that one group says he’s on the fairway and another group says those in view aren’t his ball

But it’s the action of scuffing around in the rough further up that’s most unclear and difficult to imagine that action taking place and then hearing that it was not connected to the search for his ball. Just because it turns out it was totally the wrong place it doesn’t mean the time wouldn’t be counted in his 3 minutes. I’ll bet we’ve all searched in totally the wrong place more than once

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

As someone suggested earlier, I am beginning to think the whole thing hinges on how much time he actually spent looking at a ball or for his ball. I don't mean elapsed time but looking briefly at the two balls and then looking in an area of rough towards the 11th green.

The charge of cheating cannot stand up unless it can be shown that the player knowingly took more that 3 minutes actual search time.

Edit:
The rule does not require the player to be searching anywhere in particular. That is a constraint on continuing with a possible provisional.

It is likely that he spent very little time at the two balls on the fairway as he had to get out of the way of the 3rd player in the group on the 11th playing up and didn;t have time to mark and properly check. But I do not know that for sure. It is quite possible that he spend a good couple of minutes in the rough on the 11th (that it was the wrong place, and he did not know that, does not matter?). So by the time the group had confirmed the status of the two balls on the fairway with him waiting for them after his look in the rough; and then for me and P3 to get to the scene and point out his ball - 3minutes from him first looking at the two balls on the fairway - but maybe not able to confirm that neither was his - would most certainly have been up.