3 minutes to find ball

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In terms of how the committee might proceed in sorting this out, I suggest it should clarify with the accusatory player that the assertion that Player 2 would be cheating if he played the found ball was wrong and needlessay inflammatory.He would have to understand that if he believed that 3 minutes of search time had already elapsed, he should have let the player know that if he played his ball, it would be a wrong ball and that his correct action would be to play his provisional if there was one, or take stroke & distance. At the point of the intervention, Player 2 did not know if he was over the 3 minute limit and his action had he played the wrong ball would have been made in innnocence of any intent. In those circumstances, the accusation should be retracted and an apology considered.

With that out of the way, the facts of the matter can be considered and the most important questions in my view are a) by what means did the player from the 11th time the search ; b) when did start timing it and c) can he say how long Player 2 was standing waiting to access the 11th fairway. If it wasn't timed by a watch, I reckon that's the end of the matter. If it was. but the timing might have started too soon, that puts the timing in doubt. And if the Committee were in agreement that the time spent waiting to access the 11th to check the balls there was to be discounted, the player's timing is invalidated if he did not stop and re-start his timing accordingly or, not having done so, could not be reasonably precise as to how much time should be discounted.

Many thanks Colin for this from your cogitations and considerations. I don't think the accusatory party suggested P2 played his provisional (he hadn't played one as he was confident of finding it ) or going bank to the tee. He might have made these suggestions at first but as P2 was so adamant he was OK in his time he stubbornly stood his ground - and the accusatory party became very irritated at the stance P2 was taking - things were angry, messy and confused and I just don't recall. I appreciate that the way I have described how things unfolded; what I knew at the time; what I found out later from the accusatory party - may have made this seem really messy and not so easy to get your head round. Appreciated

 

[*TQ*]

Just for my clarity am I right in thinking the 3 minute search time in SILH's example would be (for example): thirty seconds to enter the 11th fairway, get to the balls but not be able to identify confidently so retreat to edge of fairway, 2 minutes to let the third player play the 11th hole (search time clock paused), 30 further seconds to go back out to the fairway and confidently identify neither as his leaving two minutes left to search? And the issue is if any searching at all (regardless of position) took place during the two minutes he was waiting for the third player to play then the clock was not paused and he would have no time left to search at all after identifying neither of the balls on the fairway as his?

 

[TheJezster]

Christ on a bike, is this thread still going!!!???

Perhaps it's 'Time' to call this thread done? Your 3 minutes are up!

 

[Imurg]

Christ on a bike, is this thread still going!!!???

Perhaps it's 'Time' to call this thread done? Your 3 minutes are up!

And just how are you timing that?
And when did you start...?

 

[Kennysarmy]

And just how are you timing that?
And when did you start...?

Obviously from when he started "looking"

 

[TheJezster]

And just how are you timing that?
And when did you start...?

About 3 minutes ago!

I cant be certain though as I don't wear a watch to work....

:-D

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In terms of how the committee might proceed in sorting this out, I suggest it should clarify with the accusatory player that the assertion that Player 2 would be cheating if he played the found ball was wrong and needlessay inflammatory.He would have to understand that if he believed that 3 minutes of search time had already elapsed, he should have let the player know that if he played his ball, it would be a wrong ball and that his correct action would be to play his provisional if there was one, or take stroke & distance. At the point of the intervention, Player 2 did not know if he was over the 3 minute limit and his action had he played the wrong ball would have been made in innnocence of any intent. In those circumstances, the accusation should be retracted and an apology considered.

With that out of the way, the facts of the matter can be considered and the most important questions in my view are a) by what means did the player from the 11th time the search ; b) when did start timing it and c) can he say how long Player 2 was standing waiting to access the 11th fairway. If it wasn't timed by a watch, I reckon that's the end of the matter. If it was. but the timing might have started too soon, that puts the timing in doubt. And if the Committee were in agreement that the time spent waiting to access the 11th to check the balls there was to be discounted, the player's timing is invalidated if he did not stop and re-start his timing accordingly or, not having done so, could not be reasonably precise as to how much time should be discounted.

Thanks Colin - very much appreciated thankyou. I have responded this morning to an Email from the Captain asking for clarifications...jeez - it takes ages to explain all that may or may not have happened.

Anyway - it seems that the fact that P2 did not have a timing device, and did not formally stop the clock by advising either myself of the 3rd player in our 3 that he was doing so, then if he had done any looking before he waited; or if he had waited after a first check of the balls; and that the time from an initial search or quick look until we found the ball exceeded 3mins - then he was in breach. If he had not done a quick check of the balls, or done any searching before he subsequently waited - then he would have been OK if all he did was stand at the side waiting.

 

[Slab]

Thanks Colin - very much appreciated thankyou. I have responded this morning to an Email from the Captain asking for clarifications...jeez - it takes ages to explain all that may or may not have happened.

Anyway - it seems that the fact that P2 did not have a timing device, and did not formally stop the clock by advising either myself of the 3rd player in our 3 that he was doing so, then if he had done any looking before he waited; or if he had waited after a first check of the balls; and that the time from an initial search or quick look until we found the ball exceeded 3mins - then he was in breach. If he had not done a quick check of the balls, or done any searching before he subsequently waited - then he would have been OK if all he did was stand at the side waiting.

Deleted, it was a silly question

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Deleted, it was a silly question

Let me guess - How could he stop the clock if he didn't have a timing device? Quite.

 

[Slab]

Let me guess - How could he stop the clock if he didn't have a timing device? Quite.

Nah, I was actually getting ahead of myself on how they'll decide whether 3 minutes actually elapsed before P3 found the ball

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Just for my clarity am I right in thinking the 3 minute search time in SILH's example would be (for example): thirty seconds to enter the 11th fairway, get to the balls but not be able to identify confidently so retreat to edge of fairway, 2 minutes to let the third player play the 11th hole (search time clock paused), 30 further seconds to go back out to the fairway and confidently identify neither as his leaving two minutes left to search? And the issue is if any searching at all (regardless of position) took place during the two minutes he was waiting for the third player to play then the clock was not paused and he would have no time left to search at all after identifying neither of the balls on the fairway as his?

Correct - I think - other than he could also have used the 2mins up by searching before his first brief check of the balls.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Nah, I was actually getting ahead of myself on how they'll decide whether 3 minutes actually elapsed before P3 found the ball

That as well...except what happened was that within 10s of secs after the balls were identified and played his ball was found. Your question remains absolutely valid - but taking this to it's extreme - you try telling a player who has been waiting as P2 was, that the instant the guys identified the two balls as theirs then he was out of time...even although his ball was found a few seconds later

 

[*TQ*]

Interestingly if he had stopped searching to allow play to continue on the 11th hole the clock would be paused, if he had retreated from the fairway, looked in the rough for thirty seconds then stood and waited would the clock be paused from the point he stopped looking or does the act of searching prevent the clock being paused at all?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Interestingly if he had stopped searching to allow play to continue on the 11th hole the clock would be paused, if he had retreated from the fairway, looked in the rough for thirty seconds then stood and waited would the clock be paused from the point he stopped looking or does the act of searching prevent the clock being paused at all?

If he had retreated from the fairway and, whilst he was waiting, did 30s searching - then he could not have the clock stopped until he stopped that 30s searching. If he then went to the side of the fairway to wait, then at that point it could be stopped. If he had just retreated and stood at the side then it could have been.

 

[Wolf]

Interestingly enough had a situation yesterday arrived on our 5th tee and group in front were looking for a ball down in the right hand rough near where there's a large pond with reeds. Had a quick check on time whilst waiting m, it was 16:11, stood there for what felt like ages until guy found his ball checked time again 16:15 so we'd waited 4 mins but they were already searching when we arrived so God knows how long they really took, PP mentioned it to them when we got in and was met with a "there's no way we took more than 3 minutes" neither ended up with more than 12 pts in the comp but there you go...

 

[Marshy77]

Interestingly enough had a situation yesterday arrived on our 5th tee and group in front were looking for a ball down in the right hand rough near where there's a large pond with reeds. Had a quick check on time whilst waiting m, it was 16:11, stood there for what felt like ages until guy found his ball checked time again 16:15 so we'd waited 4 mins but they were already searching when we arrived so God knows how long they really took, PP mentioned it to them when we got in and was met with a "there's no way we took more than 3 minutes" neither ended up with more than 12 pts in the comp but there you go...

Should have lent them your nearly aquired time measurement device.

 

[Wolf]

Should have lent them your nearly aquired time measurement device.

Nah didn't bother me tbh if they claim it was 3mins then I'm not going to go all regimental sargeant major on them with the finer details of their short comings, as I wasn't in their group and it didn't have any impact on my round or the comps outcome. My PP on the other hand thought he was going to go off and buy them their own personal egg timers 😂

 

[Kellfire]

Nah didn't bother me tbh if they claim it was 3mins then I'm not going to go all regimental sargeant major on them with the finer details of their short comings, as I wasn't in their group and it didn't have any impact on my round or the comps outcome. My PP on the other hand thought he was going to go off and buy them their own personal egg timers 😂

If it’s a competition you do have a responsibility to report their transgression, no matter how minor it seemed. The fact they clearly showed a lack of ability to time themselves is very important to raise, too.

 

[Wolf]

If it’s a competition you do have a responsibility to report their transgression, no matter how minor it seemed. The fact they clearly showed a lack of ability to time themselves is very important to raise, too.

As I said my PP raised it with them and no doubt with the club to as he was talking to our pro about it as we left. Nothing more for me to add.

 

[rulie]

No player, including markers, are referees for the event and do not have authority to apply penalties to anyone other than to themselves. The Committee is in charge - report it to them and leave it to them.