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3 minutes to find ball

Colin L said:
Unfortunately, I don't have knowledge of what "most people" do or don't do, what 90% of golfers do or don't do, but if you give me references to whatever statistical studies you have access to that would allow me to share that understanding I'd be grateful.

When you say, "You've not broken a rule if nobody can ascertain that you went over 3 minutes have you?", that lies at the heart of your misunderstanding. To repeat, the passage of 3 minutes is a matter of fact whether anyone has timed it or not. If my untimed search does not turn up my ball within 3 minutes of starting it, it is a matter of fact that my ball is lost. Whether anyone knows that 3 minutes have elapsed, knows that my ball is therefore lost, it is in terms of the rules, lost and if I then find it and play it, I have played a wrong ball, broken a rule no matter that it was done innocently. In the interests of the entire field in a competition it would really be better that everyone times their searches so that no-one inadvertently exceeds the time limit and plays a wrong ball without knowing it, thereby gaining an unfair advantage over other players. That's it really: it's in the interests of fairness to all players to know , not guess or estimate when your search time is up.
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If a tree falls in a forest and nobody hears it, does it make a sound? For a rule break to occur that has to be some acknowledgement that a rule has been broken, surely you understand that? So if the player believes he found the ball inside 3 minutes, and his FCs believe that to be the case also, all parties are satisfied, and everyone gets on with their lives. To bring an extra level of clinicality to it as you suggest just seems awfully unnecessary to me.
 
TheJezster said:
Interesting debate this one, I've enjoyed reading the differing views.

Reading it all back without emotion, you are all loosely saying the same thing (there are a couple who are rigid, however) but the language being used differs and in some cases people are arguing because of WHO is saying it, when in reality, it's basically all the same thing being said.

I don't think anyone is condoning deliberately cheating here (read it back fully if you believe differently), it's just some (most) people don't have or use a stopwatch when timing balls. I don't for example. I tend to look at the time on my gps watch if it's (the ball) not immediately visible and then judge whether its worth looking a while longer. It's not often someone searches for a full 3 minutes anyway, most get fed up and stop much earlier.

We're not playing the Open, we're amateurs having fun at the weekend, I'm sure that the vast majority do their best to keep on top of the rules, but on occasion, there may be a slip up here and there. I'd imagine that's been going on as long as the game was invented and will continue to do so. Deliberate cheating will be stamped out when witnessed, but I would suggest there are really not many in the grand scheme of things.

It's nearly the end of the day, so go and have an evening round of golf ;-)
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100% (y)
 
TheJezster said:
Interesting debate this one, I've enjoyed reading the differing views.

Reading it all back without emotion, you are all loosely saying the same thing (there are a couple who are rigid, however) but the language being used differs and in some cases people are arguing because of WHO is saying it, when in reality, it's basically all the same thing being said.

I don't think anyone is condoning deliberately cheating here (read it back fully if you believe differently), it's just some (most) people don't have or use a stopwatch when timing balls. I don't for example. I tend to look at the time on my gps watch if it's (the ball) not immediately visible and then judge whether its worth looking a while longer. It's not often someone searches for a full 3 minutes anyway, most get fed up and stop much earlier.

We're not playing the Open, we're amateurs having fun at the weekend, I'm sure that the vast majority do their best to keep on top of the rules, but on occasion, there may be a slip up here and there. I'd imagine that's been going on as long as the game was invented and will continue to do so. Deliberate cheating will be stamped out when witnessed, but I would suggest there are really not many in the grand scheme of things.

It's nearly the end of the day, so go and have an evening round of golf ;-)
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Bounce games are no problem imo, you can do what you want but the integrity of a club competition is compromised if the rules are just ignored. I understand nobody knows all the rules and, as a result rules are broken all the time, but to argue on a rules forum that something as simple as expecting the player to time his own search is derided by some of the posters. Everyone knows it's 3 minutes and I disagree with some of the posters who say that they dont normally look for as long as 3 minutes. In bounce games its normal to just have a cursory look but my experience is that players look for longer in competitions especially if they haven't pushed a provisional ball. I dont think they deliberately cheat but it is one if the most basic rule and should be observed in club competitions imo
 
Orikoru said:
If a tree falls in a forest and nobody hears it, does it make a sound? For a rule break to occur that has to be some acknowledgement that a rule has been broken, surely you understand that? So if the player believes he found the ball inside 3 minutes, and his FCs believe that to be the case also, all parties are satisfied, and everyone gets on with their lives. To bring an extra level of clinicality to it as you suggest just seems awfully unnecessary to me.
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I'd personally not query the post of one if our foremost expert rules official 😣
 
chrisd said:
Bounce games are no problem imo, you can do what you want but the integrity of a club competition is compromised if the rules are just ignored. I understand nobody knows all the rules and, as a result rules are broken all the time, but to argue on a rules forum that something as simple as expecting the player to time his own search is derided by some of the posters. Everyone knows it's 3 minutes and I disagree with some of the posters who say that they dont normally look for as long as 3 minutes. In bounce games its normal to just have a cursory look but my experience is that players look for longer in competitions especially if they haven't pushed a provisional ball. I dont think they deliberately cheat but it is one if the most basic rule and should be observed in club competitions imo
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The rules don't say you have to time your ball search with a stopwatch, hence no rules are being "ignored" at all. The rule is observed to the satisfaction of the group. I've said this all along.
 
Orikoru said:
It's not fast and loose it's just practical application of it. As said earlier checking the time on your phone at the start and end only gives you a rough time anyway so you'll only know approximately doing it that way. Which to my mind is fine.

Well if you don't measure knee height then you don't know if you've exceeded it do you? Just like if I don't measure the 3 minutes precisely then I might have exceeded it and then makes me a cheat, so you say. So you're a cheat as well.
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At least by using a device you are being seen to adhere to the rule as very best you can.

Strangely my knees are carefully situated on the middle of my leg and if I hold the ball along side it I'm fairly sure I have dropped from knee high.
 
chrisd said:
At least by using a device you are being seen to adhere to the rule as very best you can.

Strangely my knees are carefully situated on the middle of my leg and if I hold the ball along side it I'm fairly sure I have dropped from knee high.
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Only fairly sure? At least by using a measuring device you'd be seen to adhere to the rule as very best you can.
 
robinthehood said:
If you knew it had taken you 3.10 to find your ball would you play it ?
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How do I know? Because I'm playing with Liverpool Phil and his little countdown clock and he's allegedly taken no pleasure in breaking the news to me? In that situation, and if I was somehow sure he'd started the timer at the correct time, then of course I'd have to go to my provisional / the tee.
 
Orikoru said:
How do I know? Because I'm playing with Liverpool Phil and his little countdown clock and he's allegedly taken no pleasure in breaking the news to me? In that situation, and if I was somehow sure he'd started the timer at the correct time, then of course I'd have to go to my provisional / the tee.
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Just a little idea - how about try and post without snide little comments about posters all because they play the game a little different to you.
 
chrisd said:
Lucky that you never have to time yourself at a forum meet as we dont often do them at places costing under £20
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That was weirdly personal for a discussion about the 3 minute rule wasn't it?

Liverpoolphil said:
Just a little idea - how about try and post without snide little comments about posters all because they play the game a little different to you.
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Sorry you were just the first person I thought of, it was still a genuine question. Just replace your name with "some bloke" if you like. :p
 
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