robinthehood
Hacker
Read your earlier stuff, specifically the one that started all this is probably best.
3 minutes to find ball
- Thread starter berniethebolt
- Start date
Orikoru
Tour Winner
You mean where I said that I wouldn't be one to time it precisely so if it was approximately 3 minutes that's good enough for me?
Even if someone times it with a stopwatch at 3 minutes 5 seconds, can you be sure they started it at the exactly precise time the search started? I'm not convinced you can. So yeah I'd give benefit of the doubt. It is not 'cheating' it is giving benefit of the doubt, within a game that we play for fun and enjoyment. If they were well over the 3 minutes to the point it could not be disputed then yes it's tough luck.
robinthehood
Hacker
Nope not that one
Jacko_G
Blackballed
Yet a few posts back you said you would have to "estimate" if there was no timer available. So in that situation are you "cheating" or acting in the best interests of all players.
I will still continue to do what I'm doing, if someone wishes to time me then that's their choice.
bobmac
Major Champion
Just say your tee shot ends up in the left hand rough.
You leave the tee and you walk all the way down the rough looking for other balls.
At what point do you start your stop watch?
When you get to the area you think your ball is in?
Who decides when the search has begun?
And if you can't decide when the search began, how do you know when 3 mins are up?
You leave the tee and you walk all the way down the rough looking for other balls.
At what point do you start your stop watch?
When you get to the area you think your ball is in?
Who decides when the search has begun?
And if you can't decide when the search began, how do you know when 3 mins are up?
Orikoru
Tour Winner
Do enlighten me, or else I think this has probably run it's course.
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
The search starts when you believe you are in the area where the ball went - it’s the players judgement along with their playing partners - it’s about self policing etc , we all know within ourselves when we start searching for the ball.
I think it was the post were you said if you knew it was over 3 mins and just say 3 mins 20 seconds you would be ok with them playing on - think you called it the decent thing to do and courtesy and just being a decent human etc ( or words to that effect )
Orikoru
Tour Winner
Don't think I said that. I would never precisely know it was 3:20. I would never be the one with the stopwatch out so it would be impossible to tell that precisely. I said if somebody else timed it and reckoned it was 3:10 then that's near enough three minutes - as Bob and others said, it's only their reckoning when the search started so they could easily be 10 seconds out with the timer.
Ultimately the player themself can and should take responsibility if they're sure they've gone over the 3 minutes. If they think they're within the 3 minutes I'm probably not going to know enough to argue with them.
chrisd
Major Champion
Precisely , it's not your job to time other players but if you dont carry a watch and time yourself looking for YOUR ball then I believe you are not taking responsibility and could potentially be cheating
Jacko_G
Blackballed
Brilliant ^^^^
Colin L
Tour Winner
Given that you if don't find your ball within 3 minutes of starting your search (the passage of 3 minutes being a matter of fact, not an estimation, not guesswork) and then find it and play it you are playing a wrong ball, wouldn't you think it in your own best interests to time your search and avoid even inadvertently breaching the rules?
Orikoru
Tour Winner
In the real world people just look for their ball until they give up on it, in my experience this happens after more like 2 minutes if anything. If I saw it after having given it up, chances are it was in 3 minutes, or it might not, I wouldn't know for sure and I would not lose any sleep over it, and neither would anyone else that I've ever played with I wouldn't have thought. If you think that's worth worrying about then you need to have a word with yourself. 'Cheating' is deliberately breaking rules. Deliberately. If I find the ball and reckon I'm within 3 minutes I'm not cheating. If I know for a fact I'm over 3 minutes and I play it then I'm cheating. I'm not going to waste time faffing about with a stopwatch instead of actually looking for my ball though, because my primary aim is to find the bloody ball!
You've not broken a rule if nobody can ascertain that you went over 3 minutes have you? As I keep saying, the vast majority of golfers are happy to approximate to the group's satisfaction that you didn't take too long. It is not necessary to get the bloody Countdown clock out.
chrisd
Major Champion
So, you guesstimate your own search time and never use an accurate timer on a rule that is a set, precise time, but dont see that not observing the strict nature of the rule is, to many golfers, tantamount to cheating when you go over the set time and still play your ball ?
Orikoru
Tour Winner
Not just me - most people. I've never seen one person waving a stopwatch about on a golf course, the idea is absurd to me. If you want to be that strict and precise then I would remind you that no lives are at stake here, we are playing the game for enjoyment. 90% of us golfers are happy with an approximation of the 3 minute time, and it does not amount to cheating, so jog on.
Since they changed the drop rule to knee height, do you use a measuring tape to ensure you drop from EXACTLY knee height every single time? Or get a partner to observe you and measure it? Or do you just drop it from approximately knee height and get on with it? Because if you've dropped from an inch above knee height this year, then you're a CHEAT.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
I’m usually totally on board with the 'rules is the rules' for my golf but I don’t time my search with a watch or timer device to within a couple of seconds accuracy. So I am estimating it & while I believe my estimated elapsed search time is always under the allotted time, I suppose it follows that I couldn’t prove it if I were required to, so there remains the possibility however remote that I could have searched for over 3 minutes 😢
Weirdly while I get that it’s absolutely not relevant that ball searches are all not equal because they do all have the same (defined) start and finish point
And more weirdly for such a precise time requirement It doesn’t matter if player A's search could be solo for 2;59 while player B has 12 spectators each searching for a couple of minutes before the player reaches the general area and continuing for the duration of the actual search time plus 2/3 other players plus 2/3 caddies plus access to a real-time link to tv footage/audio link to verbal steering signals to narrow search area for the team such that all this assistance and people means the actual physical minutes of search time for player B would easily be around the 60 minute mark! This compared to player A’s unassisted 3 minutes
By the rules they both were given 3 minutes of elapsed time but my brain can't help but detect a flaw here 🤔
Weirdly while I get that it’s absolutely not relevant that ball searches are all not equal because they do all have the same (defined) start and finish point
And more weirdly for such a precise time requirement It doesn’t matter if player A's search could be solo for 2;59 while player B has 12 spectators each searching for a couple of minutes before the player reaches the general area and continuing for the duration of the actual search time plus 2/3 other players plus 2/3 caddies plus access to a real-time link to tv footage/audio link to verbal steering signals to narrow search area for the team such that all this assistance and people means the actual physical minutes of search time for player B would easily be around the 60 minute mark! This compared to player A’s unassisted 3 minutes
By the rules they both were given 3 minutes of elapsed time but my brain can't help but detect a flaw here 🤔
chrisd
Major Champion
You've posted on a RULES forum that you are happy to play fast and loose with the rules. You dont need a stop watch to time 3 minutes and a device, phone, watch, egg timer will do.
It has nothing to do with lives at stake and I do drop from knee height.
Bunkermagnet
Journeyman Pro
I always glance at my watch when I go looking for my ball, why is that so strange?
Why though is it that the rules of golf are so loosely applied yet if you talk about an offisde given against their footy team the "6 inches clearly offside" is an accurate rules infringement?
Why though is it that the rules of golf are so loosely applied yet if you talk about an offisde given against their footy team the "6 inches clearly offside" is an accurate rules infringement?
Colin L
Tour Winner
Unfortunately, I don't have knowledge of what "most people" do or don't do, what 90% of golfers do or don't do, but if you give me references to whatever statistical studies you have access to that would allow me to share that understanding I'd be grateful.
When you say, "You've not broken a rule if nobody can ascertain that you went over 3 minutes have you?", that lies at the heart of your misunderstanding. To repeat, the passage of 3 minutes is a matter of fact whether anyone has timed it or not. If my untimed search does not turn up my ball within 3 minutes of starting it, it is a matter of fact that my ball is lost. Whether anyone knows that 3 minutes have elapsed, knows that my ball is therefore lost, it is in terms of the rules, lost and if I then find it and play it, I have played a wrong ball, broken a rule no matter that it was done innocently. In the interests of the entire field in a competition it would really be better that everyone times their searches so that no-one inadvertently exceeds the time limit and plays a wrong ball without knowing it, thereby gaining an unfair advantage over other players. That's it really: it's in the interests of fairness to all players to know , not guess or estimate when your search time is up.
When you say, "You've not broken a rule if nobody can ascertain that you went over 3 minutes have you?", that lies at the heart of your misunderstanding. To repeat, the passage of 3 minutes is a matter of fact whether anyone has timed it or not. If my untimed search does not turn up my ball within 3 minutes of starting it, it is a matter of fact that my ball is lost. Whether anyone knows that 3 minutes have elapsed, knows that my ball is therefore lost, it is in terms of the rules, lost and if I then find it and play it, I have played a wrong ball, broken a rule no matter that it was done innocently. In the interests of the entire field in a competition it would really be better that everyone times their searches so that no-one inadvertently exceeds the time limit and plays a wrong ball without knowing it, thereby gaining an unfair advantage over other players. That's it really: it's in the interests of fairness to all players to know , not guess or estimate when your search time is up.
TheJezster
Tour Rookie
Interesting debate this one, I've enjoyed reading the differing views.
Reading it all back without emotion, you are all loosely saying the same thing (there are a couple who are rigid, however) but the language being used differs and in some cases people are arguing because of WHO is saying it, when in reality, it's basically all the same thing being said.
I don't think anyone is condoning deliberately cheating here (read it back fully if you believe differently), it's just some (most) people don't have or use a stopwatch when timing balls. I don't for example. I tend to look at the time on my gps watch if it's (the ball) not immediately visible and then judge whether its worth looking a while longer. It's not often someone searches for a full 3 minutes anyway, most get fed up and stop much earlier.
We're not playing the Open, we're amateurs having fun at the weekend, I'm sure that the vast majority do their best to keep on top of the rules, but on occasion, there may be a slip up here and there. I'd imagine that's been going on as long as the game was invented and will continue to do so. Deliberate cheating will be stamped out when witnessed, but I would suggest there are really not many in the grand scheme of things.
It's nearly the end of the day, so go and have an evening round of golf ;-)
Reading it all back without emotion, you are all loosely saying the same thing (there are a couple who are rigid, however) but the language being used differs and in some cases people are arguing because of WHO is saying it, when in reality, it's basically all the same thing being said.
I don't think anyone is condoning deliberately cheating here (read it back fully if you believe differently), it's just some (most) people don't have or use a stopwatch when timing balls. I don't for example. I tend to look at the time on my gps watch if it's (the ball) not immediately visible and then judge whether its worth looking a while longer. It's not often someone searches for a full 3 minutes anyway, most get fed up and stop much earlier.
We're not playing the Open, we're amateurs having fun at the weekend, I'm sure that the vast majority do their best to keep on top of the rules, but on occasion, there may be a slip up here and there. I'd imagine that's been going on as long as the game was invented and will continue to do so. Deliberate cheating will be stamped out when witnessed, but I would suggest there are really not many in the grand scheme of things.
It's nearly the end of the day, so go and have an evening round of golf ;-)
Orikoru
Tour Winner
It's not fast and loose it's just practical application of it. As said earlier checking the time on your phone at the start and end only gives you a rough time anyway so you'll only know approximately doing it that way. Which to my mind is fine.
Well if you don't measure knee height then you don't know if you've exceeded it do you? Just like if I don't measure the 3 minutes precisely then I might have exceeded it and then makes me a cheat, so you say. So you're a cheat as well.
