16.3 Embedded ball

[jim8flog]

I cannot understand players who want to roll it out.

Lift and you can clean it .

Roll it and it is a 2 shot penalty and you might have mud on the ball.

 

[salfordlad]

I cannot understand players who want to roll it out.

Lift and you can clean it .

Roll it and it is a 2 shot penalty and you might have mud on the ball.

One stroke if played from the correct relief area, 2 strokes otherwise.

 

[jim8flog]

One stroke if played from the correct relief area, 2 strokes otherwise.

Question

Where do you get that from I cannot find it (not enough time to look thoroughly now)

I can only find a reference to dropping a ball in the wrong way rule 14.3(4) but as the ball has not been dropped would this rule apply?
Rolling a ball would allow the player to effectively 'place' it on a 'good' lie whereas dropping it could result in any lie so I would have the general penalty would apply as the player is potentially gaining an advantage.

Penalty for Playing a Ball from a Wrong Place in Breach of Rule 16.3: General
Penalty Under Rule 14.7a.

14.7 Playing from Wrong Place
14.7a Place from Where Ball Must Be Played
After starting a hole:
• A player must make each stroke from where their ball comes to rest, except
when the Rules require or allow the player to play a ball from another place
(see Rule 9.1).
• A player must not play their ball in play from a wrong place.
Penalty for Playing Ball from a Wrong Place in Breach of Rule 14.7a:
General Penalty.

 

[Old Colner]

Quiet strange this misconception of "rolling out" in that even though it is incorrect it is quiet widespread, wherever you play there is somebody who tries to inform you of this is the correct way to proceed as well as forum members experience's around the country, I had a playing partner last week trying it.

 

[Colin L]

One stroke if played from the correct relief area, 2 strokes otherwise.

Question

Where do you get that from I cannot find it (not enough time to look thoroughly now)

14.3b(4)

 

[Steven Rules]

Where do you get that from I cannot find it (not enough time to look thoroughly now)

I can only find a reference to dropping a ball in the wrong way rule 14.3(4) but as the ball has not been dropped would this rule apply?

I believe Salfordlad is referring to 14.3b(4):

(4) What to Do if Ball Dropped in Wrong Way. If a ball is dropped in a wrong way ......

......

If the ball was played from the relief area, the player gets one penalty stroke (but has not played from a wrong place under Rule 14.7a).

But if the ball was played from outside the relief area, or after it was placed when required to be dropped (no matter where it was played from), the player gets the general penalty.

My question for Salfordlad is whether the ball was dropped in a wrong way (one stroke penalty) or whether it was placed (in a wrong way by rolling with a club - one stroke - 14.2b(2)) when required to be dropped (general penalty). Rolling with a club means it was neither placed in the right way nor was it dropped in the right way, and therefore is it possible to assess if it was placed when required to be dropped?

Assuming the ball was rolled with a club but eventually played from the right place, there are three potential penalty options:

dropping in the wrong way - one stroke - 14.3b(4)
placing in the wrong way - one stroke - 14.2b(2)
placing when required to drop - general penalty - 13.3b(4)

Why have we settled on dropping in the wrong way, rather than placing when required to drop?

 

[salfordlad]

I believe Salfordlad is referring to 14.3b(4):

(4) What to Do if Ball Dropped in Wrong Way. If a ball is dropped in a wrong way ......

......

If the ball was played from the relief area, the player gets one penalty stroke (but has not played from a wrong place under Rule 14.7a).

But if the ball was played from outside the relief area, or after it was placed when required to be dropped (no matter where it was played from), the player gets the general penalty.

My question for Salfordlad is whether the ball was dropped in a wrong way (one stroke penalty) or whether it was placed (in a wrong way by rolling with a club - one stroke - 14.2b(2)) when required to be dropped (general penalty). Rolling with a club means it was neither placed in the right way nor was it dropped in the right way, and therefore is it possible to assess if it was placed when required to be dropped?

Assuming the ball was rolled with a club but eventually played from the right place, there are three potential penalty options:

dropping in the wrong way - one stroke - 14.3b(4)
placing in the wrong way - one stroke - 14.2b(2)
placing when required to drop - general penalty - 13.3b(4)

Why have we settled on dropping in the wrong way, rather than placing when required to drop?

This is an interesting question so I'm happy for Jim to have raised it. As Colin and Steven note, this is all about interpreting the second paragraph of 14.3b(4). On reflection, I think it could be either depending on the how and the why. That is, rolling with a club, depending on the intent of the player, could be an action very close to and arguably equivalent to placing. On the other hand, just tossing the ball down and then rolling it into a relief area of even and reasonable ground with no intent for a specific spot appears to just be dropping in a wrong way - and this was the kind of action that I had in mind in my initial response.
This could be an interesting one to sound out the authorities on.

 

[chrisd]

We have some holes where the down slope to a penalty area is not in the hazard (don'task). It's difficult when taking relief from an embedded ball, plugged into the bank, to drop, and expect it to not roll into the water. I assume that the normal dropping rules apply where the ball can be placed after 2 failed drops?

 

[Steven Rules]

Yes. 14.3c

 

[jim8flog]

Why have we settled on dropping in the wrong way, rather than placing when required to drop?

Post #21 was in response to post #20

 

[Steven Rules]

Post #21 was in response to post #20

?? Yes. I know that.

And my post #26, which you quoted in your post #30, was a continuation of the line of discussion that you and Salfordlad were having in posts #22 and #23.

The purpose of your post #30 is not clear to me.

 

[jim8flog]

?? Yes. I know that.

And my post #26, which you quoted in your post #30, was a continuation of the line of discussion that you and Salfordlad were having in posts #22 and #23.

The purpose of your post #30 is not clear to me.

Then I do not understand the need for

"Why have we settled on dropping in the wrong way, rather than placing when required to drop"

 

[Steven Rules]

Then I do not understand the need for

"Why have we settled on dropping in the wrong way, rather than placing when required to drop"

It was a question (implicitly) to Salfordlad in response to his post #22. Salfordlad realised it was a question appropriately answered by him even though I didn't explicitly say so.

Apologies for the confusion.