WW3 -All Russia / Ukraine stuff here please-

phillarrow said:
I get your view, but that will just further engender anti-West sentiment amongst the general population. A huge part of any modern conflict is the battle for hearts and minds and we have to be seen to be acting in a way that makes normal Russian citizens understand that they are part of something bigger than Russia. If not, it just makes it easier for those who wish to create a population that is firmly committed to hating the West/Democracy.
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I would welcome anyone defecting from Russia that wanted to compete under another nation's flag. We, the west, can win hearts and minds through sanctions and immigration. But that is a banned topic on this forum.
 
Tough one - we have had many conflicts over the last couple of decades and sporting sanctions have been applied to the country involved which is the right thing to do

But I don’t agree with banning individuals based on the actions of their leader - I’m not sure if that’s the right way to go , I suspect those players at various sports don’t support what he is doing
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Tough one - we have had many conflicts over the last couple of decades and sporting sanctions have been applied to the country involved which is the right thing to do

But I don’t agree with banning individuals based on the actions of their leader - I’m not sure if that’s the right way to go , I suspect those players at various sports don’t support what he is doing
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The problem there is that many, many Russians don't support what is going on and they're being hit with massive inflation and other sanctions..
Where do you draw the line..?
It is a tough one.
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Tough one - we have had many conflicts over the last couple of decades and sporting sanctions have been applied to the country involved which is the right thing to do

But I don’t agree with banning individuals based on the actions of their leader - I’m not sure if that’s the right way to go , I suspect those players at various sports don’t support what he is doing
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Then they should have the courage to condemn the actions IMO. Not in my name is a poor excuse, if it’s not in my name, say it.
 
I guess you have to consider that the regional, national & international sporting organisations are all "legal entities" - and therefore can be subject to litigation. They, presumably, therefore have to consider upon what legal basis they can effect bans and preclude people/organisationsfrom paricipating. And also whether they can survive any potential legal challenge. I suspect banning some body or other because their national leader is a pathalogical nutter isnt an adequately legal reason. It's all very well us wanting instant bans, but are these sporting organisations going to rashly take decisions that could potentially bring them to their knees as an organisation?

Personally i think banning is the right thing to do - but i can see why some aren't jumping straight in.
 
Liverpoolphil said:
But I don’t agree with banning individuals based on the actions of their leader - I’m not sure if that’s the right way to go , I suspect those players at various sports don’t support what he is doing
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I agree with the sentiment but I can't reconcile any difference between an individual and a team of individuals. If you ban the team you are banning the individuals.

I'm also trying to put my stance into context of where we stand in the UK. Russian money funds us blues. I've never been comfortable with that and even more so now. I think morally we have to cut it off completely and accept it's going to be painful but "right". Of course, it won't happen, but I think it should.
 
Old Skier said:
Then they should have the courage to condemn the actions IMO. Not in my name is a poor excuse, if it’s not in my name, say it.
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I'd like to think I'd be someone who would stand up and publicly condemn my government in this scenario. I definitely would as a Brit...but would I/we/you feel quite so brave if we knew that we would be facing assassination for doing so? Standing up to Putin hasn't worked out well for Novolny, Pussy Riot, the Skripals etc.

I'm not saying you definitely wouldn't have the courage to do this, but I think it's easy to say we would from the safety of the UK.
 
Jimaroid said:
I agree with the sentiment but I can't reconcile any difference between an individual and a team of individuals. If you ban the team you are banning the individuals.

I'm also trying to put my stance into context of where we stand in the UK. Russian money funds us blues. I've never been comfortable with that and even more so now. I think morally we have to cut it off completely and accept it's going to be painful but "right". Of course, it won't happen, but I think it should.
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It might! Rumours this morning that he's trying to sell Chelsea to a Swiss(?) billionaire. Your link with Russian money might be over sooner than you think.
 
phillarrow said:
I'd like to think I'd be someone who would stand up and publicly condemn my government in this scenario. I definitely would as a Brit...but would I/we/you feel quite so brave if we knew that we would be facing assassination for doing so? Standing up to Putin hasn't worked out well for Novolny, Pussy Riot, the Skripals etc.

I'm not saying you definitely wouldn't have the courage to do this, but I think it's easy to say we would from the safety of the UK.
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I saw a small piece of an interview a Russian billionaire gave earlier this week. I think he was at some sort of conference and was asked about the war. His reply, not word for word, was along the lines of he would like peace but please do not ask for more of an explanation. He has a family, employees in Russia, it is not safe to say more.

Quite a sobering reply and perhaps one we need to remember. Not easy being Russian and disagreeing with the leadership, as you list.
 
Lord Tyrion said:
I saw a small piece of an interview a Russian billionaire gave earlier this week. I think he was at some sort of conference and was asked about the war. His reply, not word for word, was along the lines of he would like peace but please do not ask for more of an explanation. He has a family, employees in Russia, it is not safe to say more.

Quite a sobering reply and perhaps one we need to remember. Not easy being Russian and disagreeing with the leadership, as you list.
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I read similar about Abramovich when people were suggesting that, as an ally of Putin, he should be using his power and influence to get this sorted. The counter argument given was the Putin only has ally's up to a certain point and finding yourself in a goulag (or worse) wasn't overly enticing.
 
Old Skier said:
Then they should have the courage to condemn the actions IMO. Not in my name is a poor excuse, if it’s not in my name, say it.
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It is such an easy thing to say on the comfort of your own keyboard, in a nation where we can effectively hound and disagree with politicians as much as we like (short of physically assaulting them).

Is it so easy in a society where, if you speak out against the government you can get arrested and tortured, or maybe even killed. Where Navalny, who tried to oppose Putin gets poisoned, luckily survives and as soon as he returns to Russia is put in a maximum security prison, and is allegedly tortured. Furthermore, how many Russians are aware of what is going on. How many see the same media we see? Or, how many see Putin's media, and firmly believe the west is their enemy and the unreasonable one.

In my opinion, we need as many Russian people being seen to oppose Putin and his regime. Sports stars are high profile. We often like to claim sports stars are role models when they've done something bad, simply so we can make them feel even more guilty. Well, if we genuinely believe they are role models, then why not use that position for good? As other means to speak to the Russian people. The fact that these sports stars are not actually in Russia, it will hopefully make them feel they can speak out without their lives being in immediate danger?

If you happened to find yourself living in Russia as an ex-pat, would you take to the streets to protest Putin? If it was me, I'd think twice about it, and certainly wonder about my own safety. Whereas, if our government invaded a country, with virtually the rest of the world condemning us and implementing sanctions, I wouldn't think twice about taking to the streets to protest. I'd have some faith that the British police or armed forces would not act in the same way Russian police and armed forces act on protesters.
 
Swango1980 said:
It is such an easy thing to say on the comfort of your own keyboard, in a nation where we can effectively hound and disagree with politicians as much as we like (short of physically assaulting them).

Is it so easy in a society where, if you speak out against the government you can get arrested and tortured, or maybe even killed. Where Navalny, who tried to oppose Putin gets poisoned, luckily survives and as soon as he returns to Russia is put in a maximum security prison, and is allegedly tortured. Furthermore, how many Russians are aware of what is going on. How many see the same media we see? Or, how many see Putin's media, and firmly believe the west is their enemy and the unreasonable one.

In my opinion, we need as many Russian people being seen to oppose Putin and his regime. Sports stars are high profile. We often like to claim sports stars are role models when they've done something bad, simply so we can make them feel even more guilty. Well, if we genuinely believe they are role models, then why not use that position for good? As other means to speak to the Russian people. The fact that these sports stars are not actually in Russia, it will hopefully make them feel they can speak out without their lives being in immediate danger?

If you happened to find yourself living in Russia as an ex-pat, would you take to the streets to protest Putin? If it was me, I'd think twice about it, and certainly wonder about my own safety. Whereas, if our government invaded a country, with virtually the rest of the world condemning us and implementing sanctions, I wouldn't think twice about taking to the streets to protest. I'd have some faith that the British police or armed forces would not act in the same way Russian police and armed forces act on protesters.
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I'm sure that them not being in Russia won't make a blind bit of difference if Putin wants to silence them
 
Dando said:
I'm sure that them not being in Russia won't make a blind bit of difference if Putin wants to silence them
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It is why I used the word "immediate" danger. I'm aware Russia are only to happy to go into other countries to silence critics. However, it might be easyish for them to target one or 2 individuals, but if there are dozens of Russian sports stars throughout the world criticising Putin (and other Russian celebrities), it is not going to be easy for him to go after all of them. And, if these sports stars really are role models to the Russian people, if they all start dropping dead after voicing their opposition, it is not going to bring the Russian people closer to Putin.
 
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