WW3 -All Russia / Ukraine stuff here please-

[Old Skier]

It is why I used the word "immediate" danger. I'm aware Russia are only to happy to go into other countries to silence critics. However, it might be easyish for them to target one or 2 individuals, but if there are dozens of Russian sports stars throughout the world criticising Putin (and other Russian celebrities), it is not going to be easy for him to go after all of them. And, if these sports stars really are role models to the Russian people, if they all start dropping dead after voicing their opposition, it is not going to bring the Russian people closer to Putin.

I was accused of being a keyboard warrior for suggesting this, strange.

 

[Deleted member 25172]

Do they ban all Russian footballers, tennis players etc etc from playing?
On the football front, yes ban the teams but what about Russian players in other countries and teams?
If they're not "representing" Russia should they be banned?
Say, a Russian playing footy for Millwall or something...?
Not saying they shouldn't be..just thinking out loud..

Not an easy question, but I think so. This war needs to be fought from several fronts, where taking away the daily joy of sports, music, arts etc etc, from the Russian people could be one way to wage an internal war against their dictator in charge. If everything "fun" that is now available since the fall of communism is again stripped away from them, I think, or rather hope perhaps, that internal opposition can grow and Putin finally face the same destiny as Ceaușescu.

But as someone else said, I'm just a regular bloke ranting on a golf forum.

 

[drdel]

The sobering fact is that Putin's strategy aims to cause wide population suffering. His military deliberately targets the soft options of hospitals, Schools etc. The intention is to pressurise his enemies leaders to submit and avoid further suffering. He is not even concerned with the lives of his own citizens and military personnel.

The normal negotiations based on compassion and humanity will fall on deaf ears. This leaves the West with the dilemma , as responding like with like would be abhorrent to our citizens.

I don't have answers to such an immoral perspective on human life because without a basic value of life there seems no values.

 

[GB72]

What is quite scary, if the reports are true, is the power/ability of Anonomous. Russia seem to tout themselves as being at the forefront of cyber warfare and yet over the last week Anonomous claims to have shut down Russian state TV and the Russian Space program. May all be exagerated but if the control information in Russia is seen as essential to dealing with the hearts and minds to the population and to spread dissent, they could prove to be a very useful ally.

 

[BiMGuy]

It is why I used the word "immediate" danger. I'm aware Russia are only to happy to go into other countries to silence critics. However, it might be easyish for them to target one or 2 individuals, but if there are dozens of Russian sports stars throughout the world criticising Putin (and other Russian celebrities), it is not going to be easy for him to go after all of them. And, if these sports stars really are role models to the Russian people, if they all start dropping dead after voicing their opposition, it is not going to bring the Russian people closer to Putin.

No. It will make them more likely to keep quiet.

 

[road2ruin]

Furthermore, how many Russians are aware of what is going on. How many see the same media we see? Or, how many see Putin's media, and firmly believe the west is their enemy and the unreasonable one.

The BBC had some interviews with Russian's on both sides of this. It is, generally, split it two, you have the younger generation (Under 40yrs ish) who have access to social media and get a more rounded view of the world and as such are well aware of the atrocities being committed in their name. You then have the older generations who watch the Russian state tv to get their news and those that were interviewed were fully behind the conflict and it was all about protecting Russia from those from abroad.

 

[Crazyface]

Just watching USA and UK politician bods all stood clapping. Made me laugh. Sort of like one of those satirical things where a country is getting blown to smithereens whilst politician think standing clapping will somehow help them.

 

[Swango1980]

I see Motorsport UK will refuse to recognise licenses of competitors from Russia.

So, although Mazepin can race in F1 for Haas (although I believe talks are still ongoing behind the scenes), he will be unable to race in the British Grand Prix

 

[3offTheTee]

Simple question. Russia/Putin takes Kiev. What next and how will this situation be resolved please?

 

[phillarrow]

Simple question. Russia/Putin takes Kiev. What next and how will this situation be resolved please?

Protracted guerrilla warfare for several months/years. Like an urban version of Vietnam. No winners, just losers followed by an eventual withdrawal.

That's how I see it playing out unless there is an agreement via the peace talks to break up Ukraine and hand sovereignty of some areas back to Russia. Tragic all round.

 

[Swango1980]

I was accused of being a keyboard warrior for suggesting this, strange.

Firstly, no one called you a keyboard warrior. I simply made a point that it is easy to call out Putin as a British citizen on a forum. There is zero risk. The risk is likely higher, much higher, if you are a Russian citizen in Russia.

I didn't say Russian citizens should not call him out either, I simply gave reasons why they don't. Otherwise, it is unfair to call out Russians for not having the courage to condemn Putin's actions, as if it really is that easy.

However, it may be easier for Russian citizens outside Russia to voice their objections. They may appeal to many other Russian people by doing so. Still riskier than being a Brit on their computer, but hopefully a whole lot safer that many of them will actually speak out against Putin. Their opinion could potentially reach thousands, or even millions of Russians and might be the spark that causes normal Russian citizens to have the courage to organise mass protests in Russia?

 

[Tashyboy]

I get your view, but that will just further engender anti-West sentiment amongst the general population. A huge part of any modern conflict is the battle for hearts and minds and we have to be seen to be acting in a way that makes normal Russian citizens understand that they are part of something bigger than Russia. If not, it just makes it easier for those who wish to create a population that is firmly committed to hating the West/Democracy.

Don't forget also, it was the idea that an entire people should be punished that led to huge sanctions against Germany after WW1...which then provided the melting pot in which Hitler was able to rise to power and act in the way he did. We study History for a reason, it's just a shame that we rarely seem to learn from it!

It’s strange how you can agree with a post but actually disagree with it.
A massive part of the problem was explained on BBC news this morning. Positive support for Putin has grown to 70%. But and this is a massive but. Because of what the government run media shows the Russian people. What they see and are shown is a million miles away from what is actually happening .
So as you rightly post sanctions imposed on Nazi germany were one of the reasons it was so easy for Hitler to get “ support “ from the German people. In the same way sanctions are now Imposed on Russia ( and Belarus). I personally think all Russian and Belarus sports people should be banned and maybe the people of those countries will ask serious questions as to why. The hearts and minds of The people those two countries need to be swayed and unfortunately the more “Cargo 200” happens the more normal Russians will oppose this war.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r..._(code_name)&usg=AOvVaw0R8JBngFIT8kZeQ4UyHIAg

 

[Tashyboy]

Not an easy question, but I think so. This war needs to be fought from several fronts, where taking away the daily joy of sports, music, arts etc etc, from the Russian people could be one way to wage an internal war against their dictator in charge. If everything "fun" that is now available since the fall of communism is again stripped away from them, I think, or rather hope perhaps, that internal opposition can grow and Putin finally face the same destiny as Ceaușescu.

But as someone else said, I'm just a regular bloke ranting on a golf forum.

What I find interesting is a Russian ballet school is/ was over here. The schedule has now been cancelled. But they don’t get to see state sponsored tv, they get BBC, ITV, Sky etc. I wonder what there views are when they see this with an “ open mind”. Not just the Ballet dancers but other Russians around the world.

 

[Swango1980]

Simple question. Russia/Putin takes Kiev. What next and how will this situation be resolved please?

Apparently he wants to reinstate pro Russian fugitive Yanukovych as Ukrainian leader.

So, let us say he does that. Officially Russia end the war against Ukraine. Instead, as phillarrow suggests, they are left with extreme unrest between the new government and armed civilian "rebels" for years and years. I'd imagine Russia would have to provide security within Ukraine, and they'll be constantly under attack. Bordering countries will be extremely hostile, especially the millions who fled Ukraine and are now in countries like Poland. Western countries will maintain strong sanctions on Russia, and so the Russian economy likely to suffer. China might take advantage of Russia's weakness?

I'm just thinking out loud really, but I really cannot imagine a scenario where Russia come out feeling victorious. Putin will claim he was a strong champion of Russia, obviously, but his people will suffer the consequences while the rest of the world see him for what he is. Only way back for Russia, I think, is if there is a revolution or he is kicked out of power, and someone else comes along that genuinely wants a democratic Russia with good relations with their neighbours, and can sell it to the Russian people who have been brainwashed by state media.

And, there is quite literally the nuclear option, which I don't even want to think about.

 

[GB72]

Intersting that it appears that Yarmalenko has called out by name a number of current and past Russian internationals for their silence on the matter. Even if Russians could compete, it appears to be no guarnatee that will use that platform to make any form of sttement.

 

[Tashyboy]

Apparently he wants to reinstate pro Russian fugitive Yanukovych as Ukrainian leader.

So, let us say he does that. Officially Russia end the war against Ukraine. Instead, as phillarrow suggests, they are left with extreme unrest between the new government and armed civilian "rebels" for years and years. I'd imagine Russia would have to provide security within Ukraine, and they'll be constantly under attack. Bordering countries will be extremely hostile, especially the millions who fled Ukraine and are now in countries like Poland. Western countries will maintain strong sanctions on Russia, and so the Russian economy likely to suffer. China might take advantage of Russia's weakness?

I'm just thinking out loud really, but I really cannot imagine a scenario where Russia come out feeling victorious. Putin will claim he was a strong champion of Russia, obviously, but his people will suffer the consequences while the rest of the world see him for what he is. Only way back for Russia, I think, is if there is a revolution or he is kicked out of power, and someone else comes along that genuinely wants a democratic Russia with good relations with their neighbours, and can sell it to the Russian people who have been brainwashed by state media.

And, there is quite literally the nuclear option, which I don't even want to think about.

Totally agree, especially the democratically elected leader bit. But unfortunately there will still be a fair few old cranks who like the status quo in Russia exactly as it is.

 

[chrisd]

Most Russians just keep their heads down, don't want to rock the boat so they don't get problems. Expressing an opinion is not, for them, the wisest move and so whether they believe the propaganda or not is fairly irrelevant.

Imo all things open to Russians, sport, holidays abroad, culture etc etc should be denied to them as well as economic sanctions as hard as can be meted out

 

[road2ruin]

Watched a new report from the States and their take on it is that the only people who can really remove Putin from power would be the military. If he really is mad and if he really does want to press the big red button would the military people behind him decide that enough is enough and they're not going to watch their country get vaporised. I know Putin made the statement of their being no world without Russia or something but surely there are people on the side lines with decent lives, lots of friends and families who aren't going to stand around and watch the entire country reduced to rubble in a hail of nukes.

From what I've seen China haven't come out against Russia but they've also not come out in support either and apparently one of the largest Chinese banks in Singapore has stopped trading with Russia which will have an equally damaging effect as the US/EU sanctions. Maybe the Chinese still have a key role to play in all this.

 

[phillarrow]

It’s strange how you can agree with a post but actually disagree with it.
A massive part of the problem was explained on BBC news this morning. Positive support for Putin has grown to 70%. But and this is a massive but. Because of what the government run media shows the Russian people. What they see and are shown is a million miles away from what is actually happening .
So as you rightly post sanctions imposed on Nazi germany were one of the reasons it was so easy for Hitler to get “ support “ from the German people. In the same way sanctions are now Imposed on Russia ( and Belarus). I personally think all Russian and Belarus sports people should be banned and maybe the people of those countries will ask serious questions as to why. The hearts and minds of The people those two countries need to be swayed and unfortunately the more “Cargo 200” happens the more normal Russians will oppose this war.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiUwNOxxaf2AhXPNcAKHWA_CioQFnoECA8QAQ&url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_200_(code_name)&usg=AOvVaw0R8JBngFIT8kZeQ4UyHIAg

This is why I fear it will be a long and bloody conflict. Eventually, most Russians will have lost a son/friend/neighbour to the war and the tide will turn against Putin. But this will take a very long time due to his control of state TV and he just won't care about it anyway because he has made himself omnipotent there. So, unless the results of these losses are that there is a full-scale revolution, we are still relying on the money men and women to react to Western sanctions and have him deposed.

Who knows? Hopefully, I'm just being pessimistic and the tide of public opinion in Russia will turn faster (despite them being fed false information) AND they will rise up in greater numbers than I/we believe will happen?

 

[GB72]

Watched a new report from the States and their take on it is that the only people who can really remove Putin from power would be the military. If he really is mad and if he really does want to press the big red button would the military people behind him decide that enough is enough and they're not going to watch their country get vaporised. I know Putin made the statement of their being no world without Russia or something but surely there are people on the side lines with decent lives, lots of friends and families who aren't going to stand around and watch the entire country reduced to rubble in a hail of nukes.

From what I've seen China haven't come out against Russia but they've also not come out in support either and apparently one of the largest Chinese banks in Singapore has stopped trading with Russia which will have an equally damaging effect as the US/EU sanctions. Maybe the Chinese still have a key role to play in all this.

I noticed the position taken with China, they abstained at the UN Security Council rather than support Russia and vote against the resolution condemning their actions. They have also been quietly prodding with messages about peace being the only option. This could be massive as I suspet Putin assumed China would be a solid ally in this.