WW3 -All Russia / Ukraine stuff here please-

phillarrow said:
So it's the geography and paperwork that matters, not the humanitarian crisis?! ?‍♂️
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On a small, already crowded island, UK has to be a little 'picky'! It's more appropriate for nearer nations to assist the likes of those fromthe conflicts you mentioned.
 
Sensible question for those that know more than me. Have we not been supplying Ukraine for a while, before this started? If so how would Russia know if the missile that shot a plane down came to the Ukraine before or during the Ukraine. They knew the Ukraine were armed before they invaded?
 
phillarrow said:
So it's the geography and paperwork that matters, not the humanitarian crisis?! ?‍♂️
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I think you're being pointlessly argumentative.
Of course geography is relevant.
How many Uyghur and Ethiopian evacuees are currently on our doorstep? They are 4500 and 3500 miles away on different continents while hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians are spreading through Europe looking for safe haven as we bicker.
If I give change to a busker in London am I acting immorally if I don't send a bank transfer to one in Glasgow too?
 
RichA said:
I think you're being pointlessly argumentative.
Of course geography is relevant.
How many Uyghur and Ethiopian evacuees are currently on our doorstep? They are 4500 and 3500 miles away on different continents while hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians are spreading through Europe looking for safe haven as we bicker.
If I give change to a busker in London am I acting immorally if I don't send a bank transfer to one in Glasgow too?
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I don't believe I am being pointlessly argumentative, but I'm not prepared to go back and forth any more to hammer my point home - there are enough others who do that!

My view is that the double standards between the way people are viewing the crisis and Ukraine and the crises in other parts of the world has nothing to do with proximity. You feel differently about this. That's okay. We'll just agree to disagree. ?
 
Old Skier said:
Why all of a sudden are you full of trepidation. It’s been reported weeks ago that British troops where training and supplying the Ukraine army with a whole range and DEFENSIVE weapons for the use agains armour and air assets.

Did you miss this. The solution to Moscow being a bit miffed about that is simple, turn round and go home.
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The training that the army has been doing, with the usa, has been going on for years. You don't suddenly know how and where to use these weapons.
 
Foxholer said:
Sounds like propoganda to me! Given that they don't plan on being up against more modern anti-tank weapons, it's still not something I'd like to meet heading my way!
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As Ukraine has the same T80 as the Russian be it only around 800 I think they might have thought there was a fair assumption that they were going to comes across fairly modern weapons adding in the last 3 months showing British Troops training the Ukraine Army on some very modern anti tank kit.
 
phillarrow said:
I don't believe I am being pointlessly argumentative, but I'm not prepared to go back and forth any more to hammer my point home - there are enough others who do that!

My view is that the double standards between the way people are viewing the crisis and Ukraine and the crises in other parts of the world has nothing to do with proximity. You feel differently about this. That's okay. We'll just agree to disagree. ?
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While avoiding saying it explicitly, you're pretty much inferring racial bias on the part of "people" who want to help Ukrainians but didn't offer to help Uyghars or Ethiopians. That's a bit of a generalisation. It might be true for some but I know it's not true for all.
 
road2ruin said:
Is that much difference from the Russian tanks that have been blown up by javelin missiles though? He's already got reason to go to war with the rest of Europe if he really wants to.
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In my mind or your mind it may not be...but I wouldn't want to assume that Putin would think likewise.
 
Old Skier said:
Why all of a sudden are you full of trepidation. It’s been reported weeks ago that British troops where training and supplying the Ukraine army with a whole range and DEFENSIVE weapons for the use agains armour and air assets.

Did you miss this. The solution to Moscow being a bit miffed about that is simple, turn round and go home.
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I have not missed it. Putin may choose to interpret Ukrainian use of a British Surface-to-air anti-aircraft missile to down his aircraft somewhat differently. Losing a tank in ground warfare is one thing - losing an aircraft may be another.
 
Old Skier said:
Why all of a sudden are you full of trepidation. It’s been reported weeks ago that British troops where training and supplying the Ukraine army with a whole range and of DEFENSIVE weapons for the use agains armour and air assets.

Did you miss this. The solution to Moscow being a bit miffed about that is simple, turn round and go home.
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Notwithstanding the high morals of 'our' side, this old but still relevant article makes a valid point. https://theconversation.com/purely-...such-thing-for-ukraine-or-anywhere-else-37582
 
Can’t help but feel we’re approaching the point of no return in this whole conflict. Putin’s invasion isn’t going to plan with his forces being seriously held up by the Ukrainian defence and he’s going to get increasingly desperate to put this to bed. Yesterday’s bombing of the maternity hospital in Mariupol proves that nothing is off limits and the next stage would be a movement away from conventional weapons such as the chemical type used in Syria. If that does happen I cannot see NATO being able to stand on the sidelines and they’ll have to send troops in IMO.
 
RichA said:
While avoiding saying it explicitly, you're pretty much inferring racial bias on the part of "people" who want to help Ukrainians but didn't offer to help Uyghars or Ethiopians. That's a bit of a generalisation. It might be true for some but I know it's not true for all.
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Kind of. I think there's racial bias in the media, and this filters through to the general population.

I also do believe/know that there are some people who feel differently about refugees and immigrants depending upon their country of origin and colour of skin.

What I did initially though was ask question, not make an accusation. The reason for asking it as a question is because I think it's healthy and positive to challenge our views. Not just each others but our own. For anyone who would instinctively feel that we should have fully open borders to Ukrainians, but wouldn't feel the same way if it was suggested about Ethiopians, Iraqis, Uyghur Muslims etc. I think it's important for them to explore any hidden biases that might underpin their views. Asking the question is really not the same as making an accusation.
 
road2ruin said:
Can’t help but feel we’re approaching the point of no return in this whole conflict. Putin’s invasion isn’t going to plan with his forces being seriously held up by the Ukrainian defence and he’s going to get increasingly desperate to put this to bed. Yesterday’s bombing of the maternity hospital in Mariupol proves that nothing is off limits and the next stage would be a movement away from conventional weapons such as the chemical type used in Syria. If that does happen I cannot see NATO being able to stand on the sidelines and they’ll have to send troops in IMO.
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Can't help feel you're right. Talk of the bombing of the hospital being a war crime and Russia saying it was an unused building so the usual round of accusation/denial. Haven't they already admitted thermobaric weapon use which is illegal. Clearly nothing is off limit and the only shred of hope is that Putin wouldn't want to plunge places like China into a conflict they don't want by dragging NATO into a full scale war.
 
phillarrow said:
Kind of. I think there's racial bias in the media, and this filters through to the general population.

I also do believe/know that there are some people who feel differently about refugees and immigrants depending upon their country of origin and colour of skin.

What I did initially though was ask question, not make an accusation. The reason for asking it as a question is because I think it's healthy and positive to challenge our views. Not just each others but our own. For anyone who would instinctively feel that we should have fully open borders to Ukrainians, but wouldn't feel the same way if it was suggested about Ethiopians, Iraqis, Uyghur Muslims etc. I think it's important for them to explore any hidden biases that might underpin their views. Asking the question is really not the same as making an accusation.
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I didn't think you were being accusatory. I ask similar questions of myself. I become more aware of my own biases all the time. I don't like them.
I think it's easier to help someone when they're metaphorically on your doorstep and you feel a moral compulsion to do something though.
The media make it a difficult line to tread: only help people who look like yourself and your biased; help others and you've got saviour complex.
I can try and rationalise it by thinking that helping somebody is better than helping nobody.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
I have not missed it. Putin may choose to interpret Ukrainian use of a British Surface-to-air anti-aircraft missile to down his aircraft somewhat differently. Losing a tank in ground warfare is one thing - losing an aircraft may be another.
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But Ukraine has already been supplied with a huge amount of anti aircraft missles by NATO, that's how 80+ of Russian air assets have been downed, why are you worrying about a few more all of a sudden.
 
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