WW3 -All Russia / Ukraine stuff here please-

There's been a whole bunch of concerning things posted on here the last few days, enough to badly affect someone with mental health issues. Can we try to be a bit more wary of whats going on and the suffering of these poor people in Ukraine, the stuff about dealing with a nuclear atttack is nothing but juvenile.

Regarding the refugees, the country needs to ask people to come forward who can take them into their homes, just like Poland and so many other countries are doing, I would have thought initially we could set up flights and ships to bring them to the UK.
 
SocketRocket said:
There's been a whole bunch of concerning things posted on here the last few days, enough to badly affect someone with mental health issues. Can we try to be a bit more wary of whats going on and the suffering of these poor people in Ukraine, the stuff about dealing with a nuclear atttack is nothing but juvenile.

Regarding the refugees, the country needs to ask people to come forward who can take them into their homes, just like Poland and so many other countries are doing, I would have thought initially we could set up flights and ships to bring them to the UK.
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There's going to be an opportunity for UK citizens to sponsor Ukrainian evacuees on the gov.uk "levelling up" site, but it's currently awaiting publication.
Even the Defence Secretary has acknowledged it needs to be sped up.
 
SocketRocket said:
There's been a whole bunch of concerning things posted on here the last few days, enough to badly affect someone with mental health issues. Can we try to be a bit more wary of whats going on and the suffering of these poor people in Ukraine, the stuff about dealing with a nuclear atttack is nothing but juvenile.
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I don't think anyone here is unaware of the suffering of those in Ukraine and I'm sure a lot will be helping in whatever way they see fit. I don't agree that the discussion about a nuclear attack is juvenile, it's one of a number of very real outcomes to this present situation. Hopefully it is one of the least likely (I sincerely hope so) but it is still there as a possibility so I fail to see why it cropping up in this thread as being 'juvenile'.
 
Heard on radio this morning and so pulled up video. And in these days of sadness, pain, anger, division, fear and strife did this bring a tear to my eye...? I think it did. Triggering feelings from a simpler time - I must have loved this back then. I watch again, and again...?

I want you to make love not war...

 
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SocketRocket said:
There's been a whole bunch of concerning things posted on here the last few days, enough to badly affect someone with mental health issues. Can we try to be a bit more wary of whats going on and the suffering of these poor people in Ukraine, the stuff about dealing with a nuclear atttack is nothing but juvenile.

Regarding the refugees, the country needs to ask people to come forward who can take them into their homes, just like Poland and so many other countries are doing, I would have thought initially we could set up flights and ships to bring them to the UK.
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I posted similar a couple of days ago - there is a real and present thing that we and the country can do now but that at the moment we are failing at as the system is preventing or at best holding it up.

We had the discussion yesterday and yes - we would also accomodate a Ukranian family...so dear Borders Agency...open the doors .... please.??.
 
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For those suggesting we should scrap all the normal security measures and open the doors, whilst I understand and completely agree with the sentiment you are showing, there are very good reasons not to do it that way. Just remember the Skripals, and the Ukrainian billionaire who was killed mysteriously last week. We are a direct target for the Russian secret service and, now more than ever, we must be watchful over the chances of more Russian agents getting a free pass to be here.
I do feel we need to do much more, but I think you're wrong to suggest it should be an open border with no security checks.
 
Our village is twinned with a village in Ukraine. It never used to mean much to me beyond my general outlook of one world one life. It's starting to mean a lot more than that now, with the Ukraine flags flying on entry to the village every morning while doing the school drop off. I know we could do so much more.
 
phillarrow said:
For those suggesting we should scrap all the normal security measures and open the doors, whilst I understand and completely agree with the sentiment you are showing, there are very good reasons not to do it that way. Just remember the Skripals, and the Ukrainian billionaire who was killed mysteriously last week. We are a direct target for the Russian secret service and, now more than ever, we must be watchful over the chances of more Russian agents getting a free pass to be here.
I do feel we need to do much more, but I think you're wrong to suggest it should be an open border with no security checks.
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So how come most other European countries are willing to do it...and most Ukrainians who are able and wanting to come are women and children, and many if not most will be staying with relatives. Sorry. But it's just not good enough - there is a risk but it is a risk that we can manage and that I feel we must take. The UK Borders Force is completely failing us and the people of Ukraine.
 
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:
So how come most other European countries are willing to do it...and most Ukrainians who are able and wanting to come are women and children, and many if not most will be staying with relatives. Sorry. But it's just not good enough - there is a risk but it is a risk that we can manage and that I feel we must take. The UK Borders Force is completely failing us and the people of Ukraine.
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I wouldn't blame border force as such, they are just following the latest political policy dictat from the home office.
 
phillarrow said:
For those suggesting we should scrap all the normal security measures and open the doors, whilst I understand and completely agree with the sentiment you are showing, there are very good reasons not to do it that way. Just remember the Skripals, and the Ukrainian billionaire who was killed mysteriously last week. We are a direct target for the Russian secret service and, now more than ever, we must be watchful over the chances of more Russian agents getting a free pass to be here.
I do feel we need to do much more, but I think you're wrong to suggest it should be an open border with no security checks.
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So two people being poisoned and one person being killed when we weren't letting Ukrainian refugees into the country is a good reason not to let Ukrainian refugees into the country? That's some weird logic you're using there.
 
ColchesterFC said:
So two people being poisoned and one person being killed when we weren't letting Ukrainian refugees into the country is a good reason not to let Ukrainian refugees into the country? That's some weird logic you're using there.
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Surely it has nothing to do with letting Ukrainian refugees into the country, as we are. It is that it seems to be very inefficient.

Pre Ukraine War, security measures were presumably in place for a reason? Now that the war has begun, presumably those reasons to have security at the border have not disappeared? In fact, they could be more important than ever, as anyone up to illegal activities of any kind are likely to see this volatile period as the perfect time to be opportunistic. So, simply scrapping security measures seems counter productive? That is the logical argument, and has nothing to do with not wanting to help Ukrainian refugees whose lives have been destroyed. Of course we want to help them as much as we can. Ideally, rather than scrapping security measures, we'd want to scale up resources in this area to not only improve security at this volatile time, but make it much more efficient and easier for these refugees. What that would take, I am unsure, but presumably one of the things would be many more staff in Calais to help in the process, rather than sending refugees off to Paris or Brussels to get processed.
 
Just how deep do you think the security checks were on the 19 million foreign individuals who entered the UK in the last 12 months?
Generally, it's a flash of a passport and visa, where necessary, with any flagged persons being stopped for further checks.
The UK isn't as free and easy with border control as other European nations, but it's never been "secure".
Most of the evacuees are women, children and the elderly. We need to get on with it or stop trotting out the, "Standing shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine line." It's an insult to these poor people when we should be bending over backwards to accommodate them.
 
Swango1980 said:
Surely it has nothing to do with letting Ukrainian refugees into the country, as we are. It is that it seems to be very inefficient.

Pre Ukraine War, security measures were presumably in place for a reason? Now that the war has begun, presumably those reasons to have security at the border have not disappeared? In fact, they could be more important than ever, as anyone up to illegal activities of any kind are likely to see this volatile period as the perfect time to be opportunistic. So, simply scrapping security measures seems counter productive? That is the logical argument, and has nothing to do with not wanting to help Ukrainian refugees whose lives have been destroyed. Of course we want to help them as much as we can. Ideally, rather than scrapping security measures, we'd want to scale up resources in this area to not only improve security at this volatile time, but make it much more efficient and easier for these refugees. What that would take, I am unsure, but presumably one of the things would be many more staff in Calais to help in the process, rather than sending refugees off to Paris or Brussels to get processed.
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On this I fear that you may be correct...but perhaps not in the way that is meant. Indeed the process may be very efficient. UK response to the refugee crisis is shameful and is being seen for what it is far and wide across the globe.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
On this I fear that you may be correct...but perhaps not in the way that is meant. Indeed the process may be very efficient. UK response to the refugee crisis is shameful and is being seen for what it is far and wide across the globe.
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There is no doubt it is under the microscope, and no doubt there must be huge flaws in what we are doing, and ways in which we could do it a lot lot better.

I'm not an expert in border security, the level of threats the UK potentially face on a regular basis and the sort of things that need to be done to manage this. Like most of us, I read various media reports, many of which are opinion based, and focus very much on the emotive element to draw us in to the story. So, of course our hearts are fully with the Ukrainian people, and rightly we want to help them as much as we possibly can. If we are not doing that, we need to strive to ensure we can improve on that as much as humanly possible.

My only part in this current discussion was that I don't think the solution can be as simple as "open the borders", end off. I mean, if one thinks our border security is too harsh in normal times, then feel free to argue that (as I said in my opening line, I don't know how strong or weak our system generally is, and clearly different people have different opinions anyway). But, from an assumption that our regular border control is considered generally reasonable, then by definition, simply opening the borders by removing some of the processes would weaken that, thus again by definition would give us a weaker border control. And, at a time where people could be looking to exploit it more than usual. So, it would make sense to focus more in improving the system, whilst this crisis is ongoing, so that it remains secure, yet much more efficient for those trying to use it. Furthermore, it would also make a lot of sense in putting a lot of effort in helping European countries, especially those in eastern Europe, in accommodating refugees in their own countries. Most refugees are likely going to want to stay close to Ukraine (as their President requests), and so it would be good to see us help the likes of Poland in setting up hotels / accommodation / other resources to make this as easy as possible. I'm not sure what we are doing in this area. And, of course, it would be great if we could commit 100% to all of these things, but appreciate there is a balance to be had, and stepping up efforts in some areas can mean stepping down efforts in other areas, simply based on our own resources.
 
Swango1980 said:
There is no doubt it is under the microscope, and no doubt there must be huge flaws in what we are doing, and ways in which we could do it a lot lot better.

I'm not an expert in border security, the level of threats the UK potentially face on a regular basis and the sort of things that need to be done to manage this. Like most of us, I read various media reports, many of which are opinion based, and focus very much on the emotive element to draw us in to the story. So, of course our hearts are fully with the Ukrainian people, and rightly we want to help them as much as we possibly can. If we are not doing that, we need to strive to ensure we can improve on that as much as humanly possible.

My only part in this current discussion was that I don't think the solution can be as simple as "open the borders", end off. I mean, if one thinks our border security is too harsh in normal times, then feel free to argue that (as I said in my opening line, I don't know how strong or weak our system generally is, and clearly different people have different opinions anyway). But, from an assumption that our regular border control is considered generally reasonable, then by definition, simply opening the borders by removing some of the processes would weaken that, thus again by definition would give us a weaker border control. And, at a time where people could be looking to exploit it more than usual. So, it would make sense to focus more in improving the system, whilst this crisis is ongoing, so that it remains secure, yet much more efficient for those trying to use it. Furthermore, it would also make a lot of sense in putting a lot of effort in helping European countries, especially those in eastern Europe, in accommodating refugees in their own countries. Most refugees are likely going to want to stay close to Ukraine (as their President requests), and so it would be good to see us help the likes of Poland in setting up hotels / accommodation / other resources to make this as easy as possible. I'm not sure what we are doing in this area. And, of course, it would be great if we could commit 100% to all of these things, but appreciate there is a balance to be had, and stepping up efforts in some areas can mean stepping down efforts in other areas, simply based on our own resources.
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All may be true, but if I am escaping war I am not sure that minimising geographical separation from my home country for ease of return is going to be the main consideration to where I might want to seek refuge. For some it may be, for others - especially those with friends and family in the UK - that will not be the main consideration. Indeed for ease of return what is the difference between UK and such as France and Germany, France after all is all of 22miles from the UK, and Germany is only a four hour drive from Calais.

And I am afraid that the 'flaws' that you refer to may well be by design...besides, there has been plenty of time to change or minimise the process for Ukrainian refugees given the risk of invasion has been present for many weeks, if not a few months.

Separately I am hearing that UK is looking at providing Ukraine with Starstreak (hypervelocity) surface-to-air air defence missiles. I have trepidation around how a Russian MiG being downed by a British missile, a missile supplied by the UK with the specific purpose of downing Russian aircraft, will be received in Moscow...
 
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