Would you change your vote if Labour had a stronger leader?

[Ethan]

You seem to have a complete lack of reality when it comes business and what creates wealth in this country. You constantly harp on about the fat cats salting away the money, who do you think creates the majority of jobs? It's the small to medium enterprises, people that startup new business, put their homes on the line, take out loans and work their bits off to get up and running. Some large organisations are as you describe but not all of them and not even most, they employ many people who in turn pay a lot of tax into the system so it's incorrect to believe they salt everything away and dont contribute to the tax system.

There are indeed too many people that abuse the welfare system around and I think most people see it in their everyday lives, no one is saying all people on welfare are like this as that would be wrong.

Regarding the Scandinavian countries, they have many of their own large internationals that are models of free enterprise. They do tend have Social Democratic type systems but not the kind of piffle that was coming from the Labour party in this election. Their economies are quite different than ours but they have much smaller populations, they also pay levels of tax that people here would find hard to accept and get a great deal of State interference in their lives. It's not Utopia.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the US experience of trickle down economics has shown that giving tax benefits to the rich does not cause a return in either jobs or in terms of greater money circulating in the system. It is a fact that the rich are much more likely to hid their windfalls away in tax vehicles whereas the reworking class are more likely to recirculate their in the economy. The US love of trickle down has burst.

Obviously jobs need to be created but there is a balance to be struck between incentives to do so and protecting the working class. That balance shifted too far recently.

As for lack of reality, I have worked for big corporate companies as well as small VC-backed companies, and dealt with investors from a variety of institutions interested on working with either type.

 

[Ethan]

Hahahahahaha, oh my sides, you're killing me

I do an awful lot of travelling to Scandanavian countries, and have a great relationship with my colleagues over there... you sir are a joke if you think Scandanavian socialism works.... hilarious, absolutely hilarious. Tell us about the levels of tax in the Scandanavian countries, and the levels of state expenditure on benefits. Maybe you could even tell us about the cost of your average weekly food shopping.... must dash, I've just wet myself with laughter...

I work with Scandinavian companies too, and we nearly merged with one. I guess your colleagues over there are as bitter as you. Were they like that before they met you? The Scandos I know think it works pretty well.

I guess i just have missed the riots of protest in the streets of Oslo, Stockholm and Copenhagen. It is expensive, for sure, but everyone seems to do pretty well, and many more of them have cabins, as they call them, than over here. And they all have good healthcare, better than here.

 

[Fade and Die]

Not read the whole thread so this might have already been said, but for my two penn'orth i think its more than just the leader, it was the message Labour was sending out, as mentioned by the loathsome Mandelson on the Andrew Marr show:

" We sent out a message, which basically said, we're for the poor, we hate the rich and we are completely ignoring the vast swathe of the population that exist in between"

Labour was created as the party for the working class, but now they are seen as the party of the Not working class, and they have lost there way.

They have a problem where they try to be 3 parties at once, London Labour, Northern Labour and Scottish Labour and they struggle to come up with policies that appeal to all 3.

If in a few years they were to elect someone like Dan Jarvis as a leader I think he could pull the party together, he would appeal to a lot of Old Labour, New Labour and the floating vote.

I'd still not vote for him though!

 

[Hobbit]

I work with Scandinavian companies too, and we nearly merged with one. I guess your colleagues over there are as bitter as you. Were they like that before they met you? The Scandos I know think it works pretty well.

I guess i just have missed the riots of protest in the streets of Oslo, Stockholm and Copenhagen. It is expensive, for sure, but everyone seems to do pretty well, and many more of them have cabins, as they call them, than over here. And they all have good healthcare, better than here.

Oh please do explain my bitterness.. And you've worked with Scandanavian companies? Maquet? Arjo? You've used their anaesthetic machines and vents? Or maybe their theatre tables? You may be a big fish in your Consultant's pond but, typically, clueless in the real world. No doubt from your lofty heights you can explain my gullible ignorance.

Anyway, back to the taxation, cost of living and benefits in those countries... do tell.

But hey, crack on. You're in entertaining form today.

 

[SocketRocket]

I work with Scandinavian companies too, and we nearly merged with one. I guess your colleagues over there are as bitter as you. Were they like that before they met you? The Scandos I know think it works pretty well.

I guess i just have missed the riots of protest in the streets of Oslo, Stockholm and Copenhagen. It is expensive, for sure, but everyone seems to do pretty well, and many more of them have cabins, as they call them, than over here. And they all have good healthcare, better than here.

So vote Labour and get a cabin! :rofl: Priceless!

 

[SocketRocket]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the US experience of trickle down economics has shown that giving tax benefits to the rich does not cause a return in either jobs or in terms of greater money circulating in the system. It is a fact that the rich are much more likely to hid their windfalls away in tax vehicles whereas the reworking class are more likely to recirculate their in the economy. The US love of trickle down has burst.

Obviously jobs need to be created but there is a balance to be struck between incentives to do so and protecting the working class. That balance shifted too far recently.

As for lack of reality, I have worked for big corporate companies as well as small VC-backed companies, and dealt with investors from a variety of institutions interested on working with either type.

I dont have a bubble to burst unlike the one that has been inflated by your ego.

Do you actually read what people post, did you take in the part where I explained that most jobs and wealth is created through small to medium enterprise. You seem to be paranoid with big business and fat cats.

You talk about protecting the 'Working Class' Do you still believe there is such a group of people that can be pigeon holed by that term. There are now a number of middle class echelons followed by a growing under class and it's been much like this for a considerable time now, probably the late 70s. This is why Labour has a problem positioning themselves as a representative party and shifting to the left leaves them abandoned by so many. The Conservatives are making an effort to move people out of the degradation of a life on benefits and into work, which is after all the best route out of relative poverty.

Regarding reality you seem to be a fairly well off middle class person (which is nothing to be ashamed of) I don't know your background but would take a guess that you have never had a business or employed people and don't understand the pressures this brings to small businessmen who are the backbone of the economy .

 

[MegaSteve]

You talk about protecting the 'Working Class' Do you still believe there is such a group of people that can be pigeon holed by that term. T

Despite the very best efforts of Thatcher, Blair and Cameron... Yes....

Might work in warehouses/shops now rather than in factories, mines and farms etc but we are still here... And, owning a home doesn't make you 'middle class' whatever that means these days...

 

[SocketRocket]

Despite the very best efforts of Thatcher, Blair and Cameron... Yes....

Might work in warehouses/shops now rather than in factories, mines and farms etc but we are still here... And, owning a home doesn't make you 'middle class' whatever that means these days...

The class system of the past has faded almost into oblivion. Some people still like to wear a tag on their shirt sleeve but the Working Class that I grew up with doesn't exist as it was, no one I grew up with went to university, their families didn't own their homes, they never had cars or ever went abroad on holidays, they never had refrigerators or carpets on the floor but they all worked hard and were as honest as the days long, if they could see the standard of living most have now they would never consider it Working Class and thats why these labels dont mean anything now. Labour have just been taught that lesson true and well and will need to seriously contemplate their navels if they want any chance of government .

 

[MegaSteve]

no one I grew up with went to university,

No one I grew up with went to university either... What we had though was the opportunity of proper apprenticeships with usually a job, with prospects, at the end of the term... Spend five years at uni now and you might just get the chance of being chief shelf filler... House ownership is now becoming beyond the means of too many particularly here in London... Which is an absolute disgrace when the party in charge is supposedly all about owning your own gaff...

 

[SocketRocket]

No one I grew up with went to university either... What we had though was the opportunity of proper apprenticeships with usually a job, with prospects, at the end of the term... Spend five years at uni now and you might just get the chance of being chief shelf filler... House ownership is now becoming beyond the means of too many particularly here in London... Which is an absolute disgrace when the party in charge is supposedly all about owning your own gaff...

Rome wasn't built in a day but this government is doing a great job with encouraging new job creation after the disaster period before them where people were encouraged to fester on unemployment benefits. We also need more people in Universities studying subjects that are needed in the workplace, how many art historians or media consultants do we need. We don't have the industry we had in the past that created indentured apprenticeships but there are still many available and I mean real ones that give valuable skills. Further, if we invested in our own people's skills rather than importing them from countries that do then there would be more opportunities for our young people and that is especially true for the NHS.

Regarding House ownership and the cost of buying a house, it was never cheap and interest rates were phenomenally higher than they are these days. I put this to you: If you were selling your own house (this is hypothetical as I don't know if you own a house) would you try to get the maximum sale price you could; or would you let it go below market value to help the cause?

 

[6inchcup]

NO im a TORY always have been always will be.

 

[MegaSteve]

I put this to you: If you were selling your own house (this is hypothetical as I don't know if you own a house) would you try to get the maximum sale price you could; or would you let it go below market value to help the cause?

I'd absolutely love to be in a position to be able to sell my home short to "help the cause"...

 

[SocketRocket]

I'd absolutely love to be in a position to be able to sell my home short to "help the cause"...

I never asked if you would love to, I asked you if you would! So how do you get people to sell their houses lower than someone else would pay for it? People rant on about the greedy rich but still want to make the maximum profit themselves when selling something and especially houses. Are they closet fat cats or is it normal acceptable behaviour?

 

[MegaSteve]

I never asked if you would love to, I asked you if you would! So how do you get people to sell their houses lower than someone else would pay for it? People rant on about the greedy rich but still want to make the maximum profit themselves when selling something and especially houses. Are they closet fat cats or is it normal acceptable behaviour?

Don't believe any individual/couple seeking to sell their family home for 'the going rate' can be labelled as "fat cats" closeted or otherwise...

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I think Labour would have done much better with even a half decent leader, same could be said for the Conservatives to be fair. The leader sets the tone, inspires and drives through new, well thought out policies. People didn't believe in Miliband. I'm a Labour supporter and I didn't. First time I have not voted for them, a mixture of Miliband and an inept local Labour candidate. Bring in a better leader, refresh the policies, have some backbone, beef up the shadow posts, stop reading so obviously from a script and they will have a chance next time around.

 

[SocketRocket]

Don't believe any individual/couple seeking to sell their family home for 'the going rate' can be labelled as "fat cats" closeted or otherwise...

But you were complaining about the price of housing. It's not the government that sets the price people sell their houses for.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

But you were complaining about the price of housing. It's not the government that sets the price people sell their houses for.

Let's see when Housing Associations are forced to sell their properties.

 

[FairwayDodger]

But you were complaining about the price of housing. It's not the government that sets the price people sell their houses for.

Not directly but there is lots they can do to affect the price. Individual householders have no choice, if they plan to buy another property they need to realise as much for their own place to compensate for the price of the new one.

 

[MegaSteve]

But you were complaining about the price of housing. It's not the government that sets the price people sell their houses for.

Of course government is to blame... Successive right wing administrations instructed councils to sell off their housing stock without plans to replace them... Which forced folk into the private sector driving up the cost of rent... Impacting on the sales of homes in high demand areas forcing up their value to those wishing to invest in the rental market... I was back in the East End yesterday for a family do... They [family] were telling me some of the old council houses over that way were now on the market for ridiculous sums because of their desirability to the rental market, for which they were originally intended, though beyond the reach of the 'working family'...

 

[SocketRocket]

Let's see when Housing Associations are forced to sell their properties.

I was referring to people, individuals, not Housing Associations.