Would card count for handicap

[chrisd]

Yesterday our club ran a roll up stableford. As the weather was poor and heavy showers predicted, at the point my pal and I entered there were only 4 entries and we were told that it need 6 to be classed as a competition. We went out and dodged the heavy showers and I finished with 37 points with a gross 81 (11 h/c).

My question though, if the competition was void due to lack of entries is the card still considered for handicap? I only ask as a point of interest as, being one under par would not trigger a cut (I believe) as I would have equalled the SSS which would have been used instead of a CSS (I think)

Thanks in advance

 

[duncan mackie]

If I am reading the question correctly the main issue is that the club can't do this - full stop! You cannot have a conditional competition in this way as a Q comp. You either enter the Q comp before heading out or you don't. It can't become void due to lack of entries after one player has gone out.

Now, the question as the whether it's a competition for 'club competition purposes' (prizes etc) is completely different but as a Q competition this is simply wrong and should be sorted out.

Think of the simple analogy to Supplemental Cards - to submit one you have to sign in to the 'competition' before heading out, knowing you are returning a card for handicap.

 

[chrisd]

If I am reading the question correctly the main issue is that the club can't do this - full stop! You cannot have a conditional competition in this way as a Q comp. You either enter the Q comp before heading out or you don't. It can't become void due to lack of entries after one player has gone out.

Now, the question as the whether it's a competition for 'club competition purposes' (prizes etc) is completely different but as a Q competition this is simply wrong and should be sorted out.

Think of the simple analogy to Supplemental Cards - to submit one you have to sign in to the 'competition' before heading out, knowing you are returning a card for handicap.

Thanks Duncan, thats pretty much how read the situation. I was told that I would get my entry money back if there were less than 6 entries. The card would still be a qualifying card - although my handicap wouldn't change, if I read everything correctly?

 

[duncan mackie]

The card would still be a qualifying card - although my handicap wouldn't change, if I read everything correctly?

the card is a qualifying one if the competition is a qualifying one when you set out - the competition cannot change it's Q status based on the number of people who turn up, tee off etc

personally I've never come across a 'roll up' Q competition - sounds like an oxymoron.

which club?

 

[chrisd]

the card is a qualifying one if the competition is a qualifying one when you set out - the competition cannot change it's Q status based on the number of people who turn up, tee off etc

personally I've never come across a 'roll up' Q competition - sounds like an oxymoron.

which club?

We have twice monthly roll up competitions, either medal or stableford, especially for the 5 day members who cant play on the usual Sunday ones. They are generally qualifying and that is what CONGU say they should be (as far as I know). I am a member at Ashford (Kent) Golf Club but my previous club (14 years ago) also had roll ups quite regularly. Other than for comps we do not have tee times.

 

[duncan mackie]

I thought it was, and had looked at the results to see if I could make sense off it!

The issue would seem to revolve around people, as you in the OP, setting out in a Q comp that is then deemed not to have happened because of numbers....which isn't permitted.

At the point people enter it's either a Q comp or it isn't.

 

[chrisd]

I thought it was, and had looked at the results to see if I could make sense off it!

The issue would seem to revolve around people, as you in the OP, setting out in a Q comp that is then deemed not to have happened because of numbers....which isn't permitted.

At the point people enter it's either a Q comp or it isn't.

Duncan, the results arn't posted as far as I can see. I agree with you that the card/s would still qualify for handicapping but I guess there would be no calculation of a CSS. As I shot a nett 1 under par I would have equalled the SSS and no handicap adjustment would happen - would I be correct?

 

[duncan mackie]

Duncan, the results arn't posted as far as I can see. I agree with you that the card/s would still qualify for handicapping but I guess there would be no calculation of a CSS. As I shot a nett 1 under par I would have equalled the SSS and no handicap adjustment would happen - would I be correct?

We seem to be going round in circles - blame your club!

1. I take it that the comp on the 17th Sept was 'one of these'? This shows that they are run as Q comps if run at all as comps etc
2. Yesterday's, and others based on the 2 a month underlying schedule you outlined, wasn't run as a comp at all as far as the club are concerned, apparently. Your card has the same relevance to handicapping as if you had gone out on your own one evening...
3. Whilst a club can cancel a comp for lack of numbers (or any other reason it wishes) before people have gone out, they simply cannot do this for Q comps after anyone's teed off without good reason eg the course is closed as becoming unplayable.

 

[chrisd]

We seem to be going round in circles - blame your club!

1. I take it that the comp on the 17th Sept was 'one of these'? This shows that they are run as Q comps if run at all as comps etc
2. Yesterday's, and others based on the 2 a month underlying schedule you outlined, wasn't run as a comp at all as far as the club are concerned, apparently. Your card has the same relevance to handicapping as if you had gone out on your own one evening...
3. Whilst a club can cancel a comp for lack of numbers (or any other reason it wishes) before people have gone out, they simply cannot do this for Q comps after anyone's teed off without good reason eg the course is closed as becoming unplayable.

We're not going round in circles Duncan, your postings are clear to me and I appreciate them, as I plan to talk to the Secretary in due course, once I feel that I have a complete grasp of the matter - so thanks for your perseverance.

Point 1 - Yes it would have been

Point 2 - I'm not sure if it was a comp or not by the club rule as there is no HDID posting yet and I don't know how many entered after we went out. I and 3 other entered the competition (at least), took cards and, at least our 2 cards were returned signed etc

Point 3 - Would you be able to point me in the direction of where I should suggest he look if he doesn't agree?



Thanks Duncan, I appreciate you assistance

 

[duncan mackie]

Point 3 - Would you be able to point me in the direction of where I should suggest he look if he doesn't agree?

I knew you were going to raise this - and have spend some time scouring section 17 of the CONGU manual, as well as the definition of Q Comp on page 12 for something definitive. Inevitably I can't find it!

My opinion is based on various rules and guidelines within the manual which basically say that 'things can't just change status'. The definition of a Qualifying round is in the present tense, and there's no reference to it changing through choice only through circumstances dictated by CONGU. The parallel with the rules associated with Supplemental cards also being strong. Further circumstantial evidence is supplied by the efforts CONGU put into the provisions of CSS calculations for fields below 10 and below 5. Probably the most relevant reference is actually under the definition of Non-qualifying competitions (page 11 bottom) where it makes clear that even if the specific authority necessary to designate a competition as NQ is obtained it must be done before play commences and all competitors must be advised before they tee off.

Ultimately the question would have to be asked of CONGU, in this case through James C, and for clarity the question is "Can a club operate roll up event on the basis that it is deemed a Qualifying Competition if more than 5 entries are made during the entry period ie Players A and B may not know if the competition is a Q one when they tee off as there may not be sufficient entrants?

 

[chrisd]

I knew you were going to raise this - and have spend some time scouring section 17 of the CONGU manual, as well as the definition of Q Comp on page 12 for something definitive. Inevitably I can't find it!

My opinion is based on various rules and guidelines within the manual which basically say that 'things can't just change status'. The definition of a Qualifying round is in the present tense, and there's no reference to it changing through choice only through circumstances dictated by CONGU. The parallel with the rules associated with Supplemental cards also being strong. Further circumstantial evidence is supplied by the efforts CONGU put into the provisions of CSS calculations for fields below 10 and below 5. Probably the most relevant reference is actually under the definition of Non-qualifying competitions (page 11 bottom) where it makes clear that even if the specific authority necessary to designate a competition as NQ is obtained it must be done before play commences and all competitors must be advised before they tee off.

Ultimately the question would have to be asked of CONGU, in this case through James C, and for clarity the question is "Can a club operate roll up event on the basis that it is deemed a Qualifying Competition if more than 5 entries are made during the entry period ie Players A and B may not know if the competition is a Q one when they tee off as there may not be sufficient entrants?

Having looked through my CONGU book which is 2008-2011 I do agree with you. As my handicap would have been in the buffer and would probably not been bettered by a high CSS there is little point to my making a fuss and winning a 6 man comp is hardly The Open I will just get my entrance money back and move on

Thanks Duncan - great analysis

 

[chrisd]

A final note.

The competition only attracted 4 entries due to the weather conditions and was put through the computer under what the Secretary described as a "small field". I did stay on the same handicap as the CSS was 70 and I shot a nett 70

So, thanks Duncan for your sound advice and to my club secretary for doing everything correctly - I still dont know if I won the competition though and the answer was that it wasn't cancelled and the Pro doesn't know what he's talking about!