WHS & ISV Issues (Please post only if you are a handicap secretary or involved in admin at your club)

[IanMcC]

Iit sounds like what your competition secretary is doing is correct.
For 10-17 hole comps, the full 18 hole course is used with the unplayed holes simply excluded as not played; and the usual 18 hole handicap is used with strokes allocated as per the Stroke Indexes on the 18 hole card.

If you want a set of tees with different stroke indexes (to better suit the reduced course), you would need to request that via EG...
...unless the usual conditions for handicapping are not met, in which case you can just create a new card in ClubV1 with whatever SIs you like, just not linked to WHS.

Yes. Our course is not suitable for handicap qualifiers in the winter, and courses have been created on CV1 with rationalised indexes, so surely our secretary should use these.

 

[wjemather]

Yes. Our course is not suitable for handicap qualifiers in the winter, and courses have been created on CV1 with rationalised indexes, so surely our secretary should use these.

From what you have said about wanting a fix by Club Systems and changing the ratings, it sounds like your special cards may not be setup correctly - perhaps that is why they are not being used?

 

[IanMcC]

We are using the new cards. They were configured using the rationalised courses that were built on CV1. The stroke indexes are all wrong though, as the course used for our comps is still the 18 hole course. If we are given the choice to create a SI rationalised course, surely we can use this course with CR-PAR included.

 

[wjemather]

We are using the new cards. They were configured using the rationalised courses that were built on CV1. The stroke indexes are all wrong though, as the course used for our comps is still the 18 hole course. If we are given the choice to create a SI rationalised course, surely we can use this course with CR-PAR included.

Sorry, but without seeing what you have setup it will be very difficult to advise what needs doing to achieve what you want.

But I'd guess what you need is a special 18-hole card(s) with amended SIs, but what you have instead is 10 and 17 hole cards - and I don't see how these can work without a great deal of guesswork and manipulation.

 

[IanMcC]

I think my request for aid may have been lost in translation. I will try explaining it from a different angle.
Each winter we play a shortened course, either 10 or 15 holes, and the course is not deemed suitable for qualifying cards. (Preferred lies entire GA, rake and place in bunkers etc.)

When I was M&H Secretary a couple of years back I created suitable courses on Club Systems, with rationalised stroke indexes. These worked fine 2 years ago, but last year CR-Par was introduced.
This had the initial effect of giving players far too many shots on a round, as the Par dropped from 72 to 61, but the Course Rating remained the same.

I have since handed over the M&H reigns to someone else. He is not using the 10 or 15 hole courses I built 2 years ago after the confusion last winter. He is using the full yellow 18 hole course as the basis for our winter comps.
He is, however, still using the new 10 and 15 hole cards with the rationalised stroke indexes. To this effect, it is quite difficult for players to work out where they get stableford shots, as the indexes are incorrect.

I believe Club Systems contacted our club to state that the error has been fixed. If it has, I dont know how they have done it. I assume either introducing an option to ignore CR-Par for shortened courses (non qualifiers), or using course rating data to assign a new course rating for the shortened course.

My query to those on here with admin access is this: If a dummy comp is set up using a shortened, rationalised course, does the system now compensate for CR-Par, or do players still get a false allowance?

 

[wjemather]

I think my request for aid may have been lost in translation. I will try explaining it from a different angle.
Each winter we play a shortened course, either 10 or 15 holes, and the course is not deemed suitable for qualifying cards. (Preferred lies entire GA, rake and place in bunkers etc.)

When I was M&H Secretary a couple of years back I created suitable courses on Club Systems, with rationalised stroke indexes. These worked fine 2 years ago, but last year CR-Par was introduced.
This had the initial effect of giving players far too many shots on a round, as the Par dropped from 72 to 61, but the Course Rating remained the same.

I have since handed over the M&H reigns to someone else. He is not using the 10 or 15 hole courses I built 2 years ago after the confusion last winter. He is using the full yellow 18 hole course as the basis for our winter comps.
He is, however, still using the new 10 and 15 hole cards with the rationalised stroke indexes. To this effect, it is quite difficult for players to work out where they get stableford shots, as the indexes are incorrect.

I believe Club Systems contacted our club to state that the error has been fixed. If it has, I dont know how they have done it. I assume either introducing an option to ignore CR-Par for shortened courses (non qualifiers), or using course rating data to assign a new course rating for the shortened course.

My query to those on here with admin access is this: If a dummy comp is set up using a shortened, rationalised course, does the system now compensate for CR-Par, or do players still get a false allowance?

We migrated away from ClubV1 last year so I cannot verify but I believe the solution is as above, and your workaround could only 'work' with previous calculations or with invented ratings.

 

[rulie]

I think my request for aid may have been lost in translation. I will try explaining it from a different angle.
Each winter we play a shortened course, either 10 or 15 holes, and the course is not deemed suitable for qualifying cards. (Preferred lies entire GA, rake and place in bunkers etc.)

When I was M&H Secretary a couple of years back I created suitable courses on Club Systems, with rationalised stroke indexes. These worked fine 2 years ago, but last year CR-Par was introduced.
This had the initial effect of giving players far too many shots on a round, as the Par dropped from 72 to 61, but the Course Rating remained the same.

I have since handed over the M&H reigns to someone else. He is not using the 10 or 15 hole courses I built 2 years ago after the confusion last winter. He is using the full yellow 18 hole course as the basis for our winter comps.
He is, however, still using the new 10 and 15 hole cards with the rationalised stroke indexes. To this effect, it is quite difficult for players to work out where they get stableford shots, as the indexes are incorrect.

I believe Club Systems contacted our club to state that the error has been fixed. If it has, I dont know how they have done it. I assume either introducing an option to ignore CR-Par for shortened courses (non qualifiers), or using course rating data to assign a new course rating for the shortened course.

My query to those on here with admin access is this: If a dummy comp is set up using a shortened, rationalised course, does the system now compensate for CR-Par, or do players still get a false allowance?

Isn't it obvious that the CR has to be changed to reflect only the holes being played?

 

[IanMcC]

Isn't it obvious that the CR has to be changed to reflect only the holes being played?

It's obvious if it is editable, but I'm not sure it is. When I built the shortened courses some years ago, they were based on our 18 hole yellow WHS course, so the parameters were imported. Yes, you could build completely new courses with made up parameters (can you even build a 10 or 15 hole course from scratch, I'm not sure) but it would be an inelegant solution to say the least.

 

[Oldbutwise]

It's obvious if it is editable, but I'm not sure it is. When I built the shortened courses some years ago, they were based on our 18 hole yellow WHS course, so the parameters were imported. Yes, you could build completely new courses with made up parameters (can you even build a 10 or 15 hole course from scratch, I'm not sure) but it would be an inelegant solution to say the least.

I think my request for aid may have been lost in translation. I will try explaining it from a different angle.
Each winter we play a shortened course, either 10 or 15 holes, and the course is not deemed suitable for qualifying cards. (Preferred lies entire GA, rake and place in bunkers etc.)

When I was M&H Secretary a couple of years back I created suitable courses on Club Systems, with rationalised stroke indexes. These worked fine 2 years ago, but last year CR-Par was introduced.
This had the initial effect of giving players far too many shots on a round, as the Par dropped from 72 to 61, but the Course Rating remained the same.

I have since handed over the M&H reigns to someone else. He is not using the 10 or 15 hole courses I built 2 years ago after the confusion last winter. He is using the full yellow 18 hole course as the basis for our winter comps.
He is, however, still using the new 10 and 15 hole cards with the rationalised stroke indexes. To this effect, it is quite difficult for players to work out where they get stableford shots, as the indexes are incorrect.

I believe Club Systems contacted our club to state that the error has been fixed. If it has, I dont know how they have done it. I assume either introducing an option to ignore CR-Par for shortened courses (non qualifiers), or using course rating data to assign a new course rating for the shortened course.

My query to those on here with admin access is this: If a dummy comp is set up using a shortened, rationalised course, does the system now compensate for CR-Par, or do players still get a false allowance?

Why not contact your County Rating Team and ask them to work out temporary ratings for the 10 & 15 hole courses. Shouldn't take them long as they will have all the figures necessary from your last full rating? Maybe also look at MLR-E2 (clean ball) which is valid for handicapping in the GA, rather than E3 (preferred lies) and then look at whether you really need to place in the bunkers etc to keep the course qualifying.

 

[wjemather]

Why not contact your County Rating Team and ask them to work out temporary ratings for the 10 & 15 hole courses. Shouldn't take them long as they will have all the figures necessary from your last full rating? Maybe also look at MLR-E2 (clean ball) which is valid for handicapping in the GA, rather than E3 (preferred lies) and then look at whether you really need to place in the bunkers etc to keep the course qualifying.

Ratings can only be done for 9 holes and 18 holes (2 x 9 holes). Playing over 10 or 15 holes requires using the 18 hole card and ratings, with the holes out of play marked as unplayed.

 

[rulie]

Ratings can only be done for 9 holes and 18 holes (2 x 9 holes). Playing over 10 or 15 holes requires using the 18 hole card and ratings, with the holes out of play marked as unplayed.

"Can" or "will"? Seems to me the individual hole data is available.

 

[wjemather]

"Can" or "will"? Seems to me the individual hole data is available.

The individual hole ratings are available (sort of) but the rating system only provides for generating 9-hole and 18-hole ratings. Similarly, the handicap system only uses 18-hole Score Differentials, and provides calculations for 9 and 18 hole Course and Playing handicaps.

A 15 hole course would be rated as two 9-holes to produce an 18-hole rating (3 holes would be included in both 9s to make up the 18 holes). The same process applies to any other non-standard course configurations, e.g. 12-hole courses, which are becoming more common here; we rated one last year... the front 9 comprised holes 1-9, and the back 9 comprised holes 10-12 & 1-6.