WHS and club competitions

[wjemather]

That's the reason for some places getting the jitters! (For both high and low handicappers)

I've seen several Opens this year where there was a stipulation about proportion of competition cards required. Our club does similar, but I cant remember the proportion as not effected by it

Classic case of a decent idea enabling marginal behaviour and then there's rapid "shutting stable doors!!"

It's the VAR of golf!

Simple quotas on GP/comp cards don't achieve anything; restrictions have to be more nuanced if they are to be useful, like looking at the difference between GP and comp differentials.

For non-elite/scratch comps though, those willing to sandbag are not going to be put off by a couple of quid entry fee for a few comps in order to rake it back in with one good score later - at least if they're sandbagging with GP scores, it's very easy to spot; take away their GP scores and it becomes more difficult.

 

[wjemather]

Someone at the club seems to think this is the proper procedure as the email states that it's in line with guidance from both England Golf and county officials.

Either a lie or a total misunderstanding of what EG and county have been communicating.

 

[D-S]

Either a lie or a total misunderstanding of what EG and county have been communicating.

Exactly what I was just going to post.

 

[IanM]

Someone at the club seems to think this is the proper procedure as the email states that it's in line with guidance from both England Golf and county officials.

Ask them to show you the guidance

Or email EG and ask them! Jez is a helpful chap!

 

[3offTheTee]

This is a terrible decision and agree with the points made.

However if, and it is a big if the problem is the timing.
If the season is from the end of April until the end of September, different on links, 2 weeks either side at a stretch there is only a maximum of 8 weeks to correct the problem, probably less.

If it was being brought in members should be advised that it will be in force from 1/4/26.

 

[Deleted member 15717]

I don't agree with zero GP scores and I'm happy to say that I haven't seen any with this stipulation.
However, there is very good reason for looking at the difference between comp and GP differentials for elite events because there is a very small number of players holding their HI low to get into these events by cherry-picking GP score submissions without proper oversight from their handicap committee. I've seen at least 3 such players in the scratch opens I've entered/played this year - the most brazen of whom even had the nerve to enter qualifying for the big amateur champs and The Open.

Yeah, I do agree with the elite stuff having this.

The no GP cards is ridiculous though

 

[SteveJay]

For our Board comps we have a requirement of 8 competition qualifying scores in the last 12 months. It has caused a few people some issues, myself included, at the start of the season (as although we normally remain open all year, in the Winter we don't play on the fairways so any competitions become non qualifying).

Similarly, the 2 local senior leagues have introduced rules limiting the number of GP cards in the last year, stating you must have X number of competition qualifying scores to be eligible. Im not 100% certain of the minimum but think it is around 6. That is intended to counter some who were playing in the leagues who had almost all GP cards, some of whom are certainly suspect!

 

[Imurg]

As, seemingly, more and more are deeming GP cards as largely irrelevant it will be interesting to see what EG etc Al do about the ease of uploading gP cards...after all, it's what WHS wants us to do...now we're increasingly being told that these cards won't let us into competitions..
Therefore ......they don't trust GP cards...
What's the answer?

 

[jim8flog]

Sounds to me like a bit of misunderstanding of the rule that was broght in for elite competitions. I do not think it was ever intended for club comps.

I play in a regularly weekly rollup in which you cannot win the kitty if you have not put in a GP card.

I reckon if they brought such a rule in where I play all it will do is to severely reduce the numbers entering comps.

 

[wjemather]

As, seemingly, more and more are deeming GP cards as largely irrelevant it will be interesting to see what EG etc Al do about the ease of uploading gP cards...after all, it's what WHS wants us to do...now we're increasingly being told that these cards won't let us into competitions..
Therefore ......they don't trust GP cards...
What's the answer?

Education.

Ultimately, by putting such restrictions in place for internal comps, clubs are saying that they don't have any faith in their handicap committee to identify manipulation - they should probably address that (county assistance is available).

 

[Neilds]

As, seemingly, more and more are deeming GP cards as largely irrelevant it will be interesting to see what EG etc Al do about the ease of uploading gP cards...after all, it's what WHS wants us to do...now we're increasingly being told that these cards won't let us into competitions..
Therefore ......they don't trust GP cards...
What's the answer?

This situation of ‘be careful what you wish for’ reminds me of when the military introduced pay as you dine. Shift workers and those who travelled home at weekends moaned they were paying for 21 meals a week when only eating half. When you just paid for those meals you ate, the standard dropped as the chefs could no longer ‘subsidise’ the meals with the money they didn’t spend at weekends. With the new handicap system, people wanted a more realistic handicap that reflected current form and now it is in a mess.

 

[wjemather]

Sounds to me like a bit of misunderstanding of the rule that was broght in for elite competitions. I do not think it was ever intended for club comps.

I play in a regularly weekly rollup in which you cannot win the kitty if you have not put in a GP card.

I reckon if they brought such a rule in where I play all it will do is to severely reduce the numbers entering comps.

Without question, many people have completely misunderstood EG's elite comps policy.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

WHS needs a serious revamp. I totally sympathise with the clubs doing it but it is completely at odds with the original idea of WHS.

Personally I think there should be a two handicapping system one that can be used for social golf which can use General Play scores and one for competitions when they should be limited.

I've said all a long , that WHS is there to work out a fairer way of allocating a Handicap to the millions of golfers that play either, clubs, many courses recreationally, or a fourball that play every Tuesday morning etc, which I think it does really well and have no idea how that could be improved. But I agree with you to some extent, that individual clubs should adapt their own competitions to suit the demographic of their members. If that means such and such competition will be 75% or 24 H/C max, or not open to players who have no intent on getting better, or based on previous comp cards only then so be it.
Trying to change WHS to suit every golfer and every club in the lands is just not feasible

 

[rulefan]

Either a lie or a total misunderstanding of what EG and county have been communicating.

I don't believe that EG and Counties have recommended anything. They have simply altered their own qualifying conditions to eliminate vanity handicappers who had artificially maintained low qualifying handicaps in order to enter high prestige national and (some) county events.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Unfortunately the EG app opened up a can of worms that allowed multiple people to manipulate their handicap


We have seen plenty evidence on here and in opens of clear handicap cheats so it’s not a surprise that clubs and open will bring in these rules

 

[Neilds]

Unfortunately the EG app opened up a can of worms that allowed multiple people to manipulate their handicap


We have seen plenty evidence on here and in opens of clear handicap cheats so it’s not a surprise that clubs and open will bring in these rules

Think you are mistaking the word evidence for clubhouse gossip

 

[Backache]

I don't believe that EG and Counties have recommended anything. They have simply altered their own qualifying conditions to eliminate vanity handicappers who had artificially maintained low qualifying handicaps in order to enter high prestige national and (some) county events.

If the Authorities are having to alter their rules of entry to counter WHS manipulation it is hardly fair to criticise clubs for doing the same.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Think you are mistaking the word evidence for clubhouse gossip

There has been evidence and it’s been submitted to England golf as well

 

[clubchamp98]

I don't believe that EG and Counties have recommended anything. They have simply altered their own qualifying conditions to eliminate vanity handicappers who had artificially maintained low qualifying handicaps in order to enter high prestige national and (some) county events.

That’s true .
But it’s true at the other end of the table.
People manipulating their handicaps up to win things.
Just confirms how easy it is to do imo.

 

[wjemather]

If the Authorities are having to alter their rules of entry to counter WHS manipulation it is hardly fair to criticise clubs for doing the same.

But the basic restrictions we keep hearing about don't do anything to counter manipulation.