Which course is better for reducing handicap?

[sunshine]

Yup flat as a pancake if you don’t count the huge dunes you have to over and through. Also it can be a tad windy.
As they say it’s a tough test but certainly no Grims Dyke.

Although short, the bunkers at Grim's Dyke are fearsome! Here is the 4th, you need to carry it from the tee:

 

[jim8flog]

Not a lot though, clearly. As we already know, 95% of the course/slope rating is based on distance alone.

Realisticly have you played a lot of courses to compare yours against.

I have played virtually every course in Dorset, many in Surrey/Berkshire/Hants and Somerset about the only real difference I have seen between a lot of them is green size. I remember playing one course in a match and making the comment "we could fit 3 of our greens on one of theirs".

 

[Orikoru]

Realisticly have you played a lot of courses to compare yours against.

I have played virtually every course in Dorset, many in Surrey/Berkshire/Hants and Somerset about the only real difference I have seen between a lot of them is green size. I remember playing one course in a match and making the comment "we could fit 3 of our greens on one of theirs".

I don't know what's a lot of courses. But since the start of August last year I've played nine away rounds at courses that were longer than mine, and my Stableford scores were 40, 36, 31, 38, 32, 32, 41, 32 and 34. The 31 was at Blackmoor H4H and as I remember it, I played pretty terribly. Overall I'd say it's pretty good selection of scores. An average of 35.1 points.

At my home course in that same timeframe I've played 27 rounds. The average points score is 32. Even the average of the BEST nine rounds in that time is 36.2, so only one shot better than the away rounds average!

To me the number one thing that accounts for that difference is scoring is simply that I had to play off 9 or 10 on the home rounds, whereas the away rounds I was usually off 11-13. Or, if I was only getting 10 shots, the course to me played easier (despite being longer) because it was wider and the greens were flatter.

 

[sunshine]

the course to me played easier (despite being longer) because it was wider and the greens were flatter.

The question here is really about the difficulty of the 9 "away" courses. Were they difficult courses? Or were they actually short easy courses too (just not quite as short as your course)?

I understand your point of view: a wide open 6,000 yard course with flat greens is easier for me than a narrow 5,500 yard course with sloping greens.

 

[Orikoru]

The question here is really about the difficulty of the 9 "away" courses. Were they difficult courses? Or were they actually short easy courses too (just not quite as short as your course)?

I understand your point of view: a wide open 6,000 yard course with flat greens is easier for me than a narrow 5,500 yard course with sloping greens.

You're proving my point for me. They were a bit longer but not long as we played yellow tees for all I think. Yet I was receiving 2 or 3 more shots so I didn't have to play as well in order to get a handicap cut. (The point of the thread after all.)

 

[jim8flog]

I don't know what's a lot of courses. But since the start of August last year I've played nine away rounds at courses that were longer than mine, and my Stableford scores were 40, 36, 31, 38, 32, 32, 41, 32 and 34. The 31 was at Blackmoor H4H and as I remember it, I played pretty terribly. Overall I'd say it's pretty good selection of scores. An average of 35.1 points.

At my home course in that same timeframe I've played 27 rounds. The average points score is 32. Even the average of the BEST nine rounds in that time is 36.2, so only one shot better than the away rounds average!

To me the number one thing that accounts for that difference is scoring is simply that I had to play off 9 or 10 on the home rounds, whereas the away rounds I was usually off 11-13. Or, if I was only getting 10 shots, the course to me played easier (despite being longer) because it was wider and the greens were flatter.

My question was mainly referring to how different their greens were compared to your home course?
Whilst I expect some courses may seem to have much flatter and easier greens but are they the rarity rather than the average?

 

[Orikoru]

My question was mainly referring to how different their greens were compared to your home course?
Whilst I expect some courses may seem to have much flatter and easier greens but are they the rarity rather than the average?

The greens on my course are just silly, there are only two broadly flat greens on the course. All the others slope massively in one or two directions. That makes it very difficult to go through a round with three-putting once or twice. The other courses just had normal greens I guess.

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

The greens on my course are just silly, there are only two broadly flat greens on the course. All the others slope massively in one or two directions. That makes it very difficult to go through a round with three-putting once or twice. The other courses just had normal greens I guess.

I really feel like I need to come play your course. The greens sound mental when you describe them it makes me wanna give it a go.

 

[Golfnut1957]

PCC on Sunday was 3. Never seen that before

I played in your last winter open. The Pro reckoned that the wind was gusting at least 50 mph on the top.

We won with 34 points; I can't imagine what the PCC would have worked out to.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

Another thing to take into account.

When a course is rated (from yellow tees), I would have thought it would be from the back a most position of those tees.
But I've found that the tees of the day are sometimes a substantially shorter distance, which could make the course & stroke rating seem well off.

 

[ManinBlack]

I played in your last winter open. The Pro reckoned that the wind was gusting at least 50 mph on the top.

We won with 34 points; I can't imagine what the PCC would have worked out to.

Lowest winning score we've ever had

 

[D-S]

Another thing to take into account.

When a course is rated (from yellow tees), I would have thought it would be from the back a most position of those tees.
But I've found that the tees of the day are sometimes a substantially shorter distance, which could make the course & stroke rating seem well off.

In order for scores to be acceptable for handicaps, each tee should be no more than 10 yards forward or back from their fixed measure point and the whole course should be nom more than 100 yards longer or shorter than it’s measured length.

 

[sunshine]

In order for scores to be acceptable for handicaps, each tee should be no more than 10 yards forward or back from their fixed measure point and the whole course should be nom more than 100 yards longer or shorter than it’s measured length.

The 10 yard limit seems quite restrictive. I like watching tournaments where the organisers are able to move tees up or back to present a different challenge. They love doing this for the US Open, sometimes holes have played +/- 100 yards.

I enjoy it too. A few years ago in the club championship my club pushed up the tee on a short 340 yard par 4 up to the ladies tee to make it 280 and tempt people to go for the green.

 

[Imurg]

In order for scores to be acceptable for handicaps, each tee should be no more than 10 yards forward or back from their fixed measure point and the whole course should be nom more than 100 yards longer or shorter than it’s measured length.

Whilst this is the rule I do wonder how many times courses are set up shorter or longer than they're supposed to be...may be just to help manage wear on the tee box.
Do Greenkeepers measure out how far from the plates they put the markers...and then make a list so they can add up the total..?
In reality I suspect few do.

 

[wjemather]

The 10 yard limit seems quite restrictive. I like watching tournaments where the organisers are able to move tees up or back to present a different challenge. They love doing this for the US Open, sometimes holes have played +/- 100 yards.

I enjoy it too. A few years ago in the club championship my club pushed up the tee on a short 340 yard par 4 up to the ladies tee to make it 280 and tempt people to go for the green.

Clubs are able to request ratings for composite tee sets (e.g. made up of 16 white tees, 1 yellow tee, 1 red tee) to do just this kind of thing, if they want the scores to be acceptable for handicapping.
We have rated several courses that have such options - commonly for longer tee options on one or two holes rather than shorter ones, but the principle is the same.

 

[wjemather]

Whilst this is the rule I do wonder how many times courses are set up shorter or longer than they're supposed to be...may be just to help manage wear on the tee box.
Do Greenkeepers measure out how far from the plates they put the markers...and then make a list so they can add up the total..?
In reality I suspect few do.

200 yards is a quite a large window - it's not difficult to balance out daily tee placements that are in front and behind the permanent markers to fit within it without needing to make notes.

 

[sunshine]

200 yards is a quite a large window - it's not difficult to balance out daily tee placements that are in front and behind the permanent markers to fit within it without needing to make notes.

The problem here is that on most courses the permanent markers are at the back of the tee, so the daily markers are always going to be forward of this.

 

[wjemather]

The problem here is that on most courses the permanent markers are at the back of the tee, so the daily markers are always going to be forward of this.

Permanent markers should reflect the average placement of daily tee markers (usually the midpoint of teeing areas). Where they are placed too near the back, official course measurements (used for rating) are taken from 4 yards from the back of the teeing area - this provides some room, even if it's not readily apparent.

 

[Imurg]

200 yards is a quite a large window - it's not difficult to balance out daily tee placements that are in front and behind the permanent markers to fit within it without needing to make notes.

A large window it may be overall but it doesn't stop the markers being put 15 yards ahead on half a dozen holes.......well within the 200 yard window but individually over the limit meaning the course is not acceptable for handicapping.

 

[sunshine]

You're proving my point for me. They were a bit longer but not long as we played yellow tees for all I think. Yet I was receiving 2 or 3 more shots so I didn't have to play as well in order to get a handicap cut. (The point of the thread after all.)

I don't think this is proving your point at all...

I think your point was that it is easier to lower your handicap on a long and difficult course: "If you really want to get your handicap down you need to join a club with very high course and slope ratings"

But then it turns out you were referring to a wide open, short 6000 yard courses with flat greens.