irip
Head Pro
My apologies for using the wrong wording
Which course is better for reducing handicap?
- Thread starter slicer79
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sunshine
Well-known member
1. I didn't understand this comment above, because essentially you are saying that an average round for you is the same score (over par), but then on a longer more difficult course that results in a better score differential.
2. But I understand it with your follow up post. 6000 yards is still SHORT
- so what you are actually saying is that you score just as well on short easy courses as you do on your even shorter home course.In reality, when playing a long tough course, the average golfer (there is no average - but I'm including you and me in this) will score higher. When I played Royal St George's my 19hc mate was in big trouble. He only hits his drives 200 yards, he couldn't reach the fairways on some holes, it was impossible for him to shoot his handicap. My problem was finding a wayward drive in the rough.
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
With the long term view in mind - playing a harder course may make you play better as you realise what has to change within your game to be able to play the course with fewer shots.
Achievable for those with time and energy to work on their games.
wjemather
Well-known member
6000 yards is more than long enough for the vast majority, and too long for most.1. I didn't understand this comment above, because essentially you are saying that an average round for you is the same score (over par), but then on a longer more difficult course that results in a better score differential.
2. But I understand it with your follow up post. 6000 yards is still SHORT
In reality, when playing a long tough course, the average golfer (there is no average - but I'm including you and me in this) will score higher. When I played Royal St George's my 19hc mate was in big trouble. He only hits his drives 200 yards, he couldn't reach the fairways on some holes, it was impossible for him to shoot his handicap. My problem was finding a wayward drive in the rough.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
I mean I would never play a course that was stupidly long, what's the point? 6000-6400 is ideal. I'm never going to play tees that are any longer than that since it wouldn't be enjoyable.1. I didn't understand this comment above, because essentially you are saying that an average round for you is the same score (over par), but then on a longer more difficult course that results in a better score differential.
2. But I understand it with your follow up post. 6000 yards is still SHORT
In reality, when playing a long tough course, the average golfer (there is no average - but I'm including you and me in this) will score higher. When I played Royal St George's my 19hc mate was in big trouble. He only hits his drives 200 yards, he couldn't reach the fairways on some holes, it was impossible for him to shoot his handicap. My problem was finding a wayward drive in the rough.
I'll take your RSG example - I've never been, but if I did, I can see they have a set of tees that is 6340 yards*, so I'd play those. Off my current index I'd be getting 15 shots* even off those tees! So I'd only need to shoot around 87 to get a cut on that basis, which I feel I'd be more than capable of.
*yardage was found on Hole19 so apologies if not correct, and the number of shots was from EG app.
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
Green difficulty is big annoyance for me, as ours are all lethal but this isn't accounted for in ratings at all.
I would also class myself as a medium hitter who hits a relatively good number of fairways. But I still find it easier at longer, wider courses with flatter greens. Maybe because my short game isn't great and short game is trickier and more important at my course. For example I could miss a green at my course and have a fiddly chip onto a downslope - versus being 40 yards short of the green on a longer course and having an easy pitch shot. For the most part though, the issue is that my most likely score will be the same on both courses - low 80s. However on my home track that could be an SD of 14-15 whereas on the away track it could be 10-11.
There's another course near me that's even more silly - it's called Rickmansworth. Par 65 but it has some of the hardest par 3s you'll ever see and some ridiculous slopes on fairways etc. Again, my scores there are much the same as there are on other longer courses, despite the low par. So putting cards in there would be a total waste of time, absolutely zero chance of getting cut. My mate scored 74 there in February and it gave him an SD of 15.2.Would've needed to shoot about 5 over to get cut I think (his index is 12).
Green difficulty is taken in to consideration in a Course Rating.
wjemather
Well-known member
Indeed it is.
Size, shape, speed, slopes, contours, tiers, firmness, surrounds - all measured, assessed and accounted for..
Orikoru
Tour Winner
Not a lot though, clearly. As we already know, 95% of the course/slope rating is based on distance alone.
Lucifer MorningStar
Well-known member
Still not sure I buy into what you're saying, as you've highlighted that you can play a longer course shoot the same score and get a cut. You also mentioned that the issue isn't the course length its the greens and looking at other posts you often mention poor bunker play and chipping causing you ongoing issues. That suggest to me it isn't the CR/Slope or even the length that is stopping you shooting lower scores or getting cut at your home course, but is actually flaws in your short game that are what prevents it nothing to do with the ratings at all, because when you're not having shorter shorts you're scoring better.Doesn't work because your score differential ends up being about 4 shots lower than what you thought you scored so you don't get cut. Know this from experience at my place - I need to shoot 77 or better now just to match my current handicap, and I haven't got it in me to shoot much lower than that. On a harder course I can go and shoot 81 and get a SD of 9 and get a decent cut.
sunshine
Well-known member
From my experience, and also chatting with other people, the rating process doesn't adjust enough for tricky sloping greens.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
I'm still going to miss greens wherever I play though. Maybe on the longer course there might be one hole where I'm pitching from 40 yards and finding it easier, but for every one of those I'll probably miss one extra green that I miss because I'm hitting a longer club in so if anything I have to chip more - overall it probably balances out.
sunshine
Well-known member
What's your comparison for RSG vs. Grims Dyke? What championship courses have you played to compare? Were any of them links?
By the way I agree with you that stupid long is not enjoyable. I used to like testing myself from longer tees, but I've grown out of that phase a long time ago, and it was never about playing 7,000+ yards.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
Had a look at RSG on Hole19, it looks a doddle, hardly any elevation changes, no trees. Would easily break 87!
wjemather
Well-known member
Length is by far the dominant factor but it's influence is nowhere near 95% of the end result.
sjw
Well-known member
In my experience, play the harder course/tees and your handicap will come down.
My home course, the yellow tees are about 6400 yards, CR 70.8, slope 123. The white tees are 6700, CR 72.4, slope 127. I gain 2 shots on my playing handicap playing from the white tees. Realistically, my scores aren't that different off each tee, but the same score off the whites will give me a diff ~2 lower than it would off the yellows, ergo, my handicap trends downwards.
In the winter, we play off the blue tees. Not sure of the ratings on these, but I lose about 3 shots on PH vs the yellows. Trouble is, the course doesn't really play any shorter due to the lack of rollout in the winter, despite the blue tees being quite a bit shorter on some holes. So over winter/spring, my handicap inevitably goes up about 2 or 3 shots.
My home course, the yellow tees are about 6400 yards, CR 70.8, slope 123. The white tees are 6700, CR 72.4, slope 127. I gain 2 shots on my playing handicap playing from the white tees. Realistically, my scores aren't that different off each tee, but the same score off the whites will give me a diff ~2 lower than it would off the yellows, ergo, my handicap trends downwards.
In the winter, we play off the blue tees. Not sure of the ratings on these, but I lose about 3 shots on PH vs the yellows. Trouble is, the course doesn't really play any shorter due to the lack of rollout in the winter, despite the blue tees being quite a bit shorter on some holes. So over winter/spring, my handicap inevitably goes up about 2 or 3 shots.
D-S
Well-known member
I’ve played RSG a few times, it is tough off the tees, difficult approaches and fast undulating greens - although they might not be as fearsome as Grims Dyle.
It is an extremely bold move to suggest that you are more than capable of playing to your handicap there.
D-S
Well-known member
Yup flat as a pancake if you don’t count the huge dunes you have to over and through. Also it can be a tad windy.Had a look at RSG on Hole19, it looks a doddle, hardly any elevation changes, no trees. Would easily break 87!
As they say it’s a tough test but certainly no Grims Dyke.
Lucifer MorningStar
Well-known member
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
5 over par on our yellows gives me a 5.2
7 over par on our whites gives me a 5.3. I find this easier to achieve.
Searched the randa database and I've found a 7400 course where 12 over par gives me a 5.3
Well, I dunno. Would have to give it a try. I would HOPE I could get round in an adjusted gross of 12-over as comfortably as 7 over at my home course.
Length of course, of course, must be considered along with Course Rating.
(Note: I'm not much bothered about "getting shots" on courses)
7 over par on our whites gives me a 5.3. I find this easier to achieve.
Searched the randa database and I've found a 7400 course where 12 over par gives me a 5.3
Well, I dunno. Would have to give it a try. I would HOPE I could get round in an adjusted gross of 12-over as comfortably as 7 over at my home course.
Length of course, of course, must be considered along with Course Rating.
(Note: I'm not much bothered about "getting shots" on courses)
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
Had a look at RSG on Hole19, it looks a doddle, hardly any elevation changes, no trees. Would easily break 87!
I have had many a double on hole 19
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