What exactly happens to club if you shorten the shaft?

[dejf]

Assume you have a driver and the only thing you do is to shorten its shaft by 1 inch. You do nothing else to manipulate its properties. What exactly will be different after that procedure in the behavior of the club? I am interested in stiffness, swing weight, ... everything ... including potentially subjective properties like "better control".


And second question - is this "just shortening the shaft" what would happen if you ordered from manufacturer a club with 1 inch shorter shaft than normal? Is this how they do it (just cut 1 inch off) or do they create a completely different shaft that is by design 1 inch shorter and actually does have different properties compared to the one you would get by getting standard size and then cutting 1 inch off?


Thanks a lot!

 

[evahakool]

You hit more fairways and don't lose much distance.

Someone with better knowledge than me will give you the answers you want:thup:

 

[Region3]

I would say it will feel lighter to swing and you will notice it, and it will be fractionally stiffer but you won't notice it.

You may or may not like the lighter swingweight, it's a suck it and see job.

I'm not sure if manufacturers do anything to get the swing weight back if you order a shorter club, but they should do if you ask them to.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Looking at it the other way round I bought a stiff Black Tie to compare it with my regular model. Fitted to the SLDR I couldn't get enough height on it & it felt a bit too stiff. I added 1" to the length & it behaved like a completely different shaft. I could feel the extra weight, it definitely felt less stiff &, more importantly, the launch was much higher, presumably because the extra length softened the shaft.

Re . the length of custom shafts, the supplier will simply trim the butt of a standard shaft to obtain the desired length. Sometimes, if the shaft needs to be just a little stiffer, the fitter might take between ¼" & ½" off the tip to get a flex between, say, stiff & regular.

If you shorten your shaft the most significant change you might notice is a loss of height which may affect the distance you can hit it.

 

[Foxholer]

Assume you have a driver and the only thing you do is to shorten its shaft by 1 inch. You do nothing else to manipulate its properties. What exactly will be different after that procedure in the behavior of the club? I am interested in stiffness, swing weight, ... everything ... including potentially subjective properties like "better control".


And second question - is this "just shortening the shaft" what would happen if you ordered from manufacturer a club with 1 inch shorter shaft than normal? Is this how they do it (just cut 1 inch off) or do they create a completely different shaft that is by design 1 inch shorter and actually does have different properties compared to the one you would get by getting standard size and then cutting 1 inch off?


Thanks a lot!

Swing weight goes down by a little - 6 points per inch.

What happens to other characteristics depends on the profile of the shaft - as this varies over the its length! Most important though is which end you shorten!! Much more (stiffening) effect if you take it off the tip than off the butt! Taking it off the Butt (the normal method and how it would be done if you simply specified a shorter length) has a marginal effect, while taking it off the tip typically alters the flex by half a flex per inch. Note that there are no standards for flex anyway, so those numbers/measurements are a little 'fuzzy'!

Shortening the shaft will most likely allow you to hit it better more often!

 

[Alex1975]

My advice would be to take 1/2" at a time, you can't put it back on. As Foxholer says, butt trim it unless are are actually trying to alter the tip stiffness.

 

[Maninblack4612]

My advice would be to take 1/2" at a time, you can't put it back on. As Foxholer says, butt trim it unless are are actually trying to alter the tip stiffness.

Yes you can. The length of my driver shaft has been up & down like a bride's nightie.

 

[dejf]

Cheers Foxholer! But 6 points per inch - that does not sound like "a bit", that sounds more like "a ton"
I have D3, D4 and my old one was D2.
My new one is 45.75 inch, my old one was 44.5 inch.
If I go 8 down (1.25 inch) from D3 that might be a huge difference.
I understand that a lead tape can change this back, but how reliable are lead tapes?
Do they not go off if you touch a ground in your swing?

 

[Maninblack4612]

This swing weight estimator may help you. I've compared it's output with a clubfitter's measuring device & it was spot on.

http://www.leaderboard.com/SWINGWT.HTM

 

[dejf]

This swing weight estimator may help you. I've compared it's output with a clubfitter's measuring device & it was spot on.

http://www.leaderboard.com/SWINGWT.HTM

Nice tool, thanks!
The manufacturer says it is D3/D4 and the tool says almost exactly between D3 and D4, so that matches perfectly.

If I understand it well, the problem is that I can't use it to calculate the new swing weight, because I do not know where my new balance point will be after the cut and I also do not know how much weight will the club lose. Although, I assume this can be counted provided that I am able to find the whole weight of the shaft and weight of the grip ... sounds like too much math
But using some random numbers, it seems like the final thing will be C8, which is like those 6 points down Foxholer said.

 

[Foxholer]

Cheers Foxholer! But 6 points per inch - that does not sound like "a bit", that sounds more like "a ton"
I have D3, D4 and my old one was D2.
My new one is 45.75 inch, my old one was 44.5 inch.
If I go 8 down (1.25 inch) from D3 that might be a huge difference.
I understand that a lead tape can change this back, but how reliable are lead tapes?
Do they not go off if you touch a ground in your swing?

While the scale indicates that it's 'lots', the actual difference is very small! It's purely the scale that makes it seem 'lots'!

I managed to get a set of irons set at 2 different SWs (log story) that were 4-5 points apart. I couldn't tell the difference! Though I did get them all set the same just to set it straight in my head!!

If you read further down that article MiB posted the link to, then you will see that much of the dependence on Swing weight for getting 'feel' right is a fallacy!

The advantage of shortening the club (over lengthening it) is that if the feel isn't ideal, then the process of 'correcting' it is pretty simple! Lead tape can be used initially, then the change can be made 'permanent' with Tungsten powder down the shaft jammed in with a cork.

 

[dejf]

Thanks again Foxholer!

Now, the question is - how much can I tell that I want it shorter from trying to grip it lower? Is it a good approximation of the end product feel? Obviously it won't be the same, so is it worth trying to play with lowered grip, can I get any valuable information from it?

 

[the_coach]

my take is I believe most index players are playing with driver shafts that are a tad too long

issue with adding lead tape is you do run possibly the risk of the tape coming adrift during play - plus you would have to know exactly where to place it from the get-go whether weight favors heel or toe too much etc what it does to CG then horizontal line to ideal strike location on face

on driver faces because of 'bulge & roll' there's also only one location of the face that's 'true loft' of the driver model (9.5, 10.5 or whatever isn't just anywhere on the face)

weight being added would be done by a 'good fitter' by either using 'tip weights' or 'tungsten powder' or 'hot melt' (in effect is glue) on the 'inside' - tip weights being the best option as there probably would have to be too much bulk added going the 'hot melt' route

swing weight would change if it was just "butt' trimmed plus overall club weight so depends whether you notice that enough during use but it would also change the MOI some too perhaps more of an issue than swing weight

so a good fitter because of all of the above would 'tip trim' some plus 'butt trim' to get the shaft to the optimum length whilst remaining the same in swingweight, frequency & MOI

the amount of weight you'd have to add is greater than you'd think - so cutting off the amount you looking to from the butt end only would mean adding as much as 14g's to the club head weight
10g is as much as 2 cycle frequencies so then in effect you making the shaft more flexible (soft) by a whole category so "stiff down to reg" or regular shaft down even more soft

so best ways if you can stump the $ outlay would be find a real good independent fitter

meantime first off you could always just use a band of thin masking tape to indicate the length of 'cut' then use the club with hands only to that marker - you know then you really putting hands in the correct location each time & see what that does to shot results in terms of more accuracy

 

[dejf]

Cheers the_coach!

The only thing I do not understand from what you wrote is the "10g = 2 cycle" thing. First - what is a cycle frequency? Second - will adding weight to club head / shaft tip make the end product less stiff?

 

[the_coach]

Cheers the_coach!

The only thing I do not understand from what you wrote is the "10g = 2 cycle" thing. First - what is a cycle frequency? Second - will adding weight to club head / shaft tip make the end product less stiff?

10 grams of weight at the head (but probably around 14g needed given the amount "butt cut" length being thought of) will if nothing else is done then make the shaft more 'soft' so less stiff by a whole category so stiff shaft would become regular in terms of playing proflle.

the 'cycles' is the reference term to shaft bend profile, shaft frequency - so in effect it's what's generally spoken of in terms of shaft 'stiffness' or 'softness'

if you just cut the butt end & didn't add weight to the head then the shaft would play a tad stiffer not by much though - but the whole club would maybes 'feel' light which could affect swing rhythm particularly at takeaway & transition

 

[dejf]

Thanks mate!

 

[Alex1975]

Yes you can. The length of my driver shaft has been up & down like a bride's nightie.

You can't put the cut shaft back, you can make the club longer again. Small difference maybe but still.

 

[Foxholer]

Thanks again Foxholer!

Now, the question is - how much can I tell that I want it shorter from trying to grip it lower? Is it a good approximation of the end product feel? Obviously it won't be the same, so is it worth trying to play with lowered grip, can I get any valuable information from it?

Gripping down will give you a resonably good approximation as to how it will feel, but it won't actually be 'the same'! That's because the grip will be thinner at the point you grip down to and, , more importantly, the excess will be acting as a very slight counterbalance - which will affect the swing weight - while you are doing so. However, unless you are particularly sensitive to this sort of thing, then, imo, you won't notice it after a couple of swings!

Cheers the_coach!

The only thing I do not understand from what you wrote is the "10g = 2 cycle" thing. First - what is a cycle frequency? Second - will adding weight to club head / shaft tip make the end product less stiff?

The 'cycles' are the result of measurement on a CPM machine, which is the standard way in which shafts flexes are measured - though it's only relevant to 'identical' profile/weight shafts, as these vary across different styles and brands of shaft. The uncut shaft is put in a 'grip' (5 inches from the butt from memory) and the tip tweaked. The frequency at which the shaft oscillates is a measure of how stiff that shaft is. A Stiff shaft may oscillate at round 253 cpm; an X Flex at around 263cpm. As a comparison, several 'prototypes' apparently headed for Tiger Woods's testing were rated at 280pm!

CPM measurement is not an entirely satisfactory way of comparing different shafts (the butt attribute dominates) and Cleveland (through their subsidary Miyazaki) proposed an 'International Standard' method - that has not been adopted - of rating the flex at 4 different points. The reason for doing that is that the different profiles can be seen rather clearer, so individual player preference/requirements can be gleaned better!

CPM does, however, allow a set of shafts (for irons) to be matched, as the profile of the individual shafts is pretty consistent. This is what 'Frequency Matching', as opposed to 'Weight Matching' is all about.

Adding weight to the head will indeed make the shaft feel less stiff. Again, depending on the amount of weight, this might not be noticeable, but for those who are particularly sensitive, the tape can be added near the ferrule and balanced by some under the grip. Again, I believe that, except for rare.particularly finnicky folk, the difference will not be noticed after a couple of swings!

 

[dejf]

Cool info, thanks! I am not hardware guy (I focus all my energy on to my swing and game, not clubs), so this is like magic to me I believe I have created my swing to match clubs (9yr old clubs, including the driver), and not vice versa (like players get measured and clubs get fitted to them). So, this stuff is all new to me. Hopefully, I will be able to hit a ball again with a driver soon ...

 

[shewy]

Glad this thread came along, I'm going for an inch off my Driver to 44.5", and inch off my 3 wood to 42" and taking 3/4" off my hybrid down to 40".
Being not overly tall I believe that clubs are generally too long for most amateurs anyway.
Found a local club fitter as really don't want tape all over the head, tip weights sounds like a great idea.