Sam
Head Pro
Although I agree with Parmo, doesn't this whole thread sort of make a mockery of Junior and Women's tees anyway? If the handicap reflects ability (which it should) shouldn't we all use the same tee?
What do Ladies & juniors have that Seniors don't?
- Thread starter Parmo
- Start date
Mike_j_golf
Q-School Graduate
Hi,
Most clubs in ireland have senior opens where all the guys are over 50 so they are off a level playing feild if guys are off a competive handicap they can play in medals in there own clubs and still do ok there is no way of measuring how far a 50 plus guy can hit the ball i hit it nearly 300 and played this guy in a inter club match and he was 55 and he out drove me most of the day shame for him he had the yips maybe we should make the hole bigger for the over 55's. your handicap should reflect your ability no matter what your age.
Mike
Most clubs in ireland have senior opens where all the guys are over 50 so they are off a level playing feild if guys are off a competive handicap they can play in medals in there own clubs and still do ok there is no way of measuring how far a 50 plus guy can hit the ball i hit it nearly 300 and played this guy in a inter club match and he was 55 and he out drove me most of the day shame for him he had the yips maybe we should make the hole bigger for the over 55's. your handicap should reflect your ability no matter what your age.
Mike
GB72
Money List Winner
The time when the handicap system does not work is during mixed comps. I get frustrated that the women play off the reds still whilst the men play off the whites. Surely in mixed comps, women should play off the yellows if men are playing further back off the whites
Herbie
Tour Winner
Although ladies are ever improving their game more and more comparable to men, the majority will always fall short of men on distance because of their physical build and limited strengths in certain areas, which is why I see some understanding in mixed comps for their advantage. Should there be the same advantage for seniors when there is no such advantage for lady seniors?
Its another area where golf is complicated by people.
Its another area where golf is complicated by people.
DCB
Well-known member
GB72
What do you mean by "mixed comps" ?
What do you mean by "mixed comps" ?
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
The whole tee thing is interesting to me. Juniors start off the reds, then move to the yellows, then whites, then off the blocks, as age and h/cap allow. Now for me, I play of the whites most of the time, but medal off the blocks, which adds 600 odd yards. I can't practice off these, only medal play. I find the increased length difficult.
For the ladies, their medal tees are the reds, same as they always play off, so they are in practice for the medals.
The hazards on the course are set for the mens medal tees, so most of the fairway hazards are not in play for the ladies either.
I have played with a couple of low teen h/cap ladies recently, and they lack comparatively basic skills that you would expect from a 12 h/capper male. It doesn't seem to compare to a 12 h/cap man, off the blocks.
I think they should medal off the yellows.
For the seniors, what if there is a 200 yard carry over water, with no bail out area? My dad could be there all day, drowning balls. He would then end up off 28, when in fact he is a dangerous 21, at 76 years old. Why shouldn't he medal off the yellows? I don't see that as any different to the ladies being off short tees.
For the ladies, their medal tees are the reds, same as they always play off, so they are in practice for the medals.
The hazards on the course are set for the mens medal tees, so most of the fairway hazards are not in play for the ladies either.
I have played with a couple of low teen h/cap ladies recently, and they lack comparatively basic skills that you would expect from a 12 h/capper male. It doesn't seem to compare to a 12 h/cap man, off the blocks.
I think they should medal off the yellows.
For the seniors, what if there is a 200 yard carry over water, with no bail out area? My dad could be there all day, drowning balls. He would then end up off 28, when in fact he is a dangerous 21, at 76 years old. Why shouldn't he medal off the yellows? I don't see that as any different to the ladies being off short tees.
GB72
Money List Winner
We play some comps with a maximum handicap of 36 so men and women can take part
Leftie
Tour Winner
As a "Senior", Vet, grumpy old git, or whatever, I feel qualified to respond.
All of our Vets club matches and inter club Vets friendlies are played off the yellow tees but handicaps are generally based on normal club comps off the whites. Some Vets will play off the yellows in general roll up play and friendlies and others like myself will always play off the whites for preference. I can't think of anyone at our club who would want more forward tees than the yellows.
Length off the tee isn't the be all and end all of being a golfer. OK there are some holes where you need to be long enough to clear trouble but off yellows this would rarely be a problem. You young wippersnappers will eventually find that with age comes a bit of acceptance and cunning. I've reached the stage where I'm happy to play within my limitations and settle for 200/230 yds off the tee (on a good day) and usually stay in play. Yes I can hit the ball quite a bit further if I really try but don't like having to waste time looking for it in the trees or rough. I regularly play with guys well into their 70's and a couple in thir 80's whose handicaps are, in the main, in the teens. Not only would they give you guys a good game of h/cap but some of you might struggle to keep up with them.
There is one guy in particular who comes to mind. In his 70's and playing off 15, until recently his game tee to green was driver, driver, driver, putt or 2 putt at worst. You couldn't find a tougher matchplay opponent. I said "until recently" as he got a new driver in the summer and is now about 25 yds longer off the tee but can't use it off the fairway. There are others who will be a good 100yds short in 2 but are deadly from that range leaving 1 or 2 putts regularly.
Don't write us old geezers off. We are quite happy to take you on.
All of our Vets club matches and inter club Vets friendlies are played off the yellow tees but handicaps are generally based on normal club comps off the whites. Some Vets will play off the yellows in general roll up play and friendlies and others like myself will always play off the whites for preference. I can't think of anyone at our club who would want more forward tees than the yellows.
Length off the tee isn't the be all and end all of being a golfer. OK there are some holes where you need to be long enough to clear trouble but off yellows this would rarely be a problem. You young wippersnappers will eventually find that with age comes a bit of acceptance and cunning. I've reached the stage where I'm happy to play within my limitations and settle for 200/230 yds off the tee (on a good day) and usually stay in play. Yes I can hit the ball quite a bit further if I really try but don't like having to waste time looking for it in the trees or rough. I regularly play with guys well into their 70's and a couple in thir 80's whose handicaps are, in the main, in the teens. Not only would they give you guys a good game of h/cap but some of you might struggle to keep up with them.
There is one guy in particular who comes to mind. In his 70's and playing off 15, until recently his game tee to green was driver, driver, driver, putt or 2 putt at worst. You couldn't find a tougher matchplay opponent. I said "until recently" as he got a new driver in the summer and is now about 25 yds longer off the tee but can't use it off the fairway. There are others who will be a good 100yds short in 2 but are deadly from that range leaving 1 or 2 putts regularly.
Don't write us old geezers off. We are quite happy to take you on.
RGuk
Tour Winner
I'm getting a bit frustrated with this thread. I think the OP has something in it.
I, me, myself (all 3!) don't care either way how a course is set up, the course is the course and the SSS is the SSS etc.etc.
As far as MY game is concerned, I'll find a way to play the holes where I don't have a hope in hell and figure out a strategy for safe bogeys.
What I do feel is pertinent though is what I was trying to allude to earlier.
The SSS could be adjusted to take into account a few forward tees....could it not?
What I was suggesting was taking a look at a very few holes, those that might cause trouble for a short hitter.
I can only offer, as case evidence (M'lud) the comparison between the 4 course I play the most. At two of them (the "hardest") there is NO issue whatsoever with being a fit senior/lady or a less able golfer. There is always a way to negotiate your way around, the difference between a 250 yard driver and a "struggle-to-make-200" player is regulated (as it should be) by the SSS, CSS, the player's h'cap.
However, the flip side is that now and again, holes are designed poorly to give beginners/seniors/short-hitters (whatever catagory) no hope at all. Like I said, there are holes at mine (as an example) where I see capable players make 7s and 8s week in week out, holding up play because there is an "impossible" element to a hole.
Thinking about the example of the 2nd hole at W. Middlesex (my previous post) ladies and seniors hitting across to the first makes a huge bottleneck and is, in all seriousness, dangerous as well.
I say, put some of the tees in more equitable places then adjust the SSS. No need for extra tees in general, of course not.
I leave you with the tale of a long par 3 over a lake at the Warwickshire. I played there with 2 friends and one mate's dad. We all bombed drivers over the lake to safely land on the other side, green or not. My mates's Dad went all around the lake (4 shots) taking in the view of at least 3 other holes. He walked off with a 6. We all played of 12-18....was it fair he should take a triple???
I, me, myself (all 3!) don't care either way how a course is set up, the course is the course and the SSS is the SSS etc.etc.
As far as MY game is concerned, I'll find a way to play the holes where I don't have a hope in hell and figure out a strategy for safe bogeys.
What I do feel is pertinent though is what I was trying to allude to earlier.
The SSS could be adjusted to take into account a few forward tees....could it not?
What I was suggesting was taking a look at a very few holes, those that might cause trouble for a short hitter.
I can only offer, as case evidence (M'lud) the comparison between the 4 course I play the most. At two of them (the "hardest") there is NO issue whatsoever with being a fit senior/lady or a less able golfer. There is always a way to negotiate your way around, the difference between a 250 yard driver and a "struggle-to-make-200" player is regulated (as it should be) by the SSS, CSS, the player's h'cap.
However, the flip side is that now and again, holes are designed poorly to give beginners/seniors/short-hitters (whatever catagory) no hope at all. Like I said, there are holes at mine (as an example) where I see capable players make 7s and 8s week in week out, holding up play because there is an "impossible" element to a hole.
Thinking about the example of the 2nd hole at W. Middlesex (my previous post) ladies and seniors hitting across to the first makes a huge bottleneck and is, in all seriousness, dangerous as well.
I say, put some of the tees in more equitable places then adjust the SSS. No need for extra tees in general, of course not.
I leave you with the tale of a long par 3 over a lake at the Warwickshire. I played there with 2 friends and one mate's dad. We all bombed drivers over the lake to safely land on the other side, green or not. My mates's Dad went all around the lake (4 shots) taking in the view of at least 3 other holes. He walked off with a 6. We all played of 12-18....was it fair he should take a triple???
Herbie
Tour Winner
I agree Leftie, I havent met any old fellas who would elect to play from a forward tee and good on them I say.
Smiffy
Grand Slam Winner
I disagree.
Most of the old duffers I know are great chippers and putters. Get them on a 400 yard par 4 and they will nobble their drives down the fairway (usually the middle) about 180 yards. They will then nobble their second shots another 150 yards or so. You've smacked one down the middle say 240 and then knock a nice 6 iron into the green. You think you've got them. Then they get up and down, you three putt and you've lost the hole.
Most of 'em are crafty buggers.
Now stick them off the white tees on a 190 yard par 3 over a lake and they're struggling, whereas you should make it.
But put them off the red tee at 140 yards and they will still make a game of it.
Does that make sense?
Herbie
Tour Winner
I dont understand your argument there smiffy, if it takes 10 strokes per hole to get near the green, then that is their standard and would reflect in their h/c. At what point would you say I get a yardage advantage, when Im only hitting the ball 220/200/180/150/100 with my driver???
or when Im down tojust 80 yds a time yet nailing the last 60?
Herbie
Tour Winner
For me there are different types of golfer, there are those who catch on and achieve great golf and there are those who play the game and never realise their potential.
Its wrong to try and cater for those who cant make it other than a reasonably fair h/c system because then it would be like aiming low to get lower.
If an old fella only hits a ball 100yds max and has a h/c of 10 to 15, that is an old boy who can play the game, if its the same scenario and the old boy plays off 36 then he should just play for his own pleasure and nothing else in my view, i dont see why special aid should be given to such a player, I cant understand why anyone can?
Its wrong to try and cater for those who cant make it other than a reasonably fair h/c system because then it would be like aiming low to get lower.
If an old fella only hits a ball 100yds max and has a h/c of 10 to 15, that is an old boy who can play the game, if its the same scenario and the old boy plays off 36 then he should just play for his own pleasure and nothing else in my view, i dont see why special aid should be given to such a player, I cant understand why anyone can?
theeaglehunter
Tour Winner
The handicap system should still allow for that Smiffy. You can't possibly incorporate a distance advantage with a handicap system as well.
I think what you are suggesting is that they should be able to hit the same club into the green as you do, eg my 8 iron goes 145 yards so if they only hit their 8 iron 110 yards than they should have a 35 yard advantage on a 145 yard hole. However this would be impossible to police as you couldn't develop a system where you can easily play against others and would also make things more unfair as like you said earlier seniors are often very good at chipping / putting so they will make up for it. There really is no way forward in terms of just giving people a distance advantage- the handicap system will sort this out!
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However I think RGUK has a really good plan in on the odd hole altering the distance for seniors or those that are not confident of carrying a certain hazard and then altering the SSS / CSS to allow for that. This would make more work for competition secretaries etc but most of it is done by computers now anyway so this is definitely a feasible idea- congrats! It would however mean people are playing a slightly different course so will end up with a slightly less compatible handicap in say a match play when 3/4 difference is played etc and could demand a revision of the CONGU system. The other thing is this eventually will mean that the seniors playing off these forward tees (as a different SSS) will gain lower handicaps so they won't actually get an advantage so it could definitely work if the handicaps are initially revised and gained off of the forward tees not the back ones (which would give them more shots and a distance advantage!)
I think what you are suggesting is that they should be able to hit the same club into the green as you do, eg my 8 iron goes 145 yards so if they only hit their 8 iron 110 yards than they should have a 35 yard advantage on a 145 yard hole. However this would be impossible to police as you couldn't develop a system where you can easily play against others and would also make things more unfair as like you said earlier seniors are often very good at chipping / putting so they will make up for it. There really is no way forward in terms of just giving people a distance advantage- the handicap system will sort this out!
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However I think RGUK has a really good plan in on the odd hole altering the distance for seniors or those that are not confident of carrying a certain hazard and then altering the SSS / CSS to allow for that. This would make more work for competition secretaries etc but most of it is done by computers now anyway so this is definitely a feasible idea- congrats! It would however mean people are playing a slightly different course so will end up with a slightly less compatible handicap in say a match play when 3/4 difference is played etc and could demand a revision of the CONGU system. The other thing is this eventually will mean that the seniors playing off these forward tees (as a different SSS) will gain lower handicaps so they won't actually get an advantage so it could definitely work if the handicaps are initially revised and gained off of the forward tees not the back ones (which would give them more shots and a distance advantage!)
DCB
Well-known member
So at the Open this year, should we have some forward tees for the older former champions in the field?
If there were forward tees I think quite a lot of the old guys might appreciate it !
And the realy long hitters, well we could put new tees even further back just to make things equal.
If there were forward tees I think quite a lot of the old guys might appreciate it !
And the realy long hitters, well we could put new tees even further back just to make things equal.
Smiffy
Grand Slam Winner
And the realy long hitters, well we could put new tees even further back just to make things equal.
Didn't they do that at Augusta (and other courses) when Tiger burst onto the scene?
And didn't Faldo (and other mere mortals) complain about it?
It didn't stop them though!
HomerJSimpson
Hall of Famer
At the end of the day it is ultimately about enjoyment and there are some holes I can think of (the 3rd at Royal Ascot and the 7th and 9th at Wimbledon Common) that play over an environmetal area (Ascot) and a ravine (WC) and which are at least 180 yard carry. I know a lot of out lady members and seniors at Ascot that simply cannot make the carry of the red and yellow tees respectively and there is a blue tee at the edge of the environmental area to reduce the carry to approximately 140 yards. They have the option of playing that one hole off the forward marker and I cannot see the point in sacrificing a ball from further back everytime you play the course. It is no fun and soul destroying. The same applies at Wimbledon Common where there are forward tees that makes the tee shot acheivable. No one wants to stand there in full knowledge they cannot even with a Sunday best clear the hazard. That is not fun
However if a lady or senior wants to play in a competitive round (some only choose to play stableford these days) they must still do so off the whites. On the 3rd they can then choose to chip a ball forward and attempt to clear from where it lands or put one in the hazard and go to the dropping zone adjacent to the blue tee area.
In general play I have no problems where a hole requires a significant carry to make it easier by introducing a tee for such purposes but don't think there is much mileage in trying to pick cut off points whereby players qualify for forward tees on all holes etc. I'm not sure many seniors would really want to play a significantly reduced course anyway as there is still a fair degree of pride in matching par even off the yellows.
However if a lady or senior wants to play in a competitive round (some only choose to play stableford these days) they must still do so off the whites. On the 3rd they can then choose to chip a ball forward and attempt to clear from where it lands or put one in the hazard and go to the dropping zone adjacent to the blue tee area.
In general play I have no problems where a hole requires a significant carry to make it easier by introducing a tee for such purposes but don't think there is much mileage in trying to pick cut off points whereby players qualify for forward tees on all holes etc. I'm not sure many seniors would really want to play a significantly reduced course anyway as there is still a fair degree of pride in matching par even off the yellows.
Tommo21
Tour Winner
Okay, being a young senior at 56 I think it’s a good idea. First of all anyone who talks about “how you separate the senior who hits the ball 260†easy, the HC system. If I’m playing off a forward senior tee and I still hit the ball 260 then it will surely be reflected in a lower HC. I play off 6.7 and I would say playing off 5.7 would be achievable of a yellow tee.
I’m all for helping the senior player, we’ll all be there one day and even if it’s just a few yards there is absolutely no reason why the HC system won’t sort this out. I would be happy to take a percentage HC cut if I moved forward a few yards.
The main point that’s already been made is the problem some of the more senior players have clearing the rough, semi rough or hazards. In some senior opens I’ve seen this first hand on a few occasions. At one point that I felt sorry for one guy who hit the ball beautifully and straight for around 150 yards but couldn’t clear the rough on a 190 yard par 3.
I have the utmost respect for the more elderly players. Most of them have played all their days and there comes a point when distance will be a problem for their enjoyment of the game.
I get a little annoyed at people who talk about how long a senior hits the ball as if that reflects how they score. This has been planted in every single golfers head from day one and it’s totally wrong. I still hear it all the time about players “he can hit the ball miles†it’s bull. I have played for 35 years and I know more big hitters who cant putt, chip or pitch for toffee. Oh, but he can hit the ball miles and that’s all that matters in this game………….bull.
In saying all that I don’t think a “senior forward tee†should start until a player is 60 or 65. By that time I think senior players would be grateful of a few yards and it is factual that you loose distance as the years roll on.
Just the other day I had a round of golf with John Findlay and a couple of his friends. All these players hit the ball further than me and I’m the lowest HC player.
I’m all for helping the senior player, we’ll all be there one day and even if it’s just a few yards there is absolutely no reason why the HC system won’t sort this out. I would be happy to take a percentage HC cut if I moved forward a few yards.
The main point that’s already been made is the problem some of the more senior players have clearing the rough, semi rough or hazards. In some senior opens I’ve seen this first hand on a few occasions. At one point that I felt sorry for one guy who hit the ball beautifully and straight for around 150 yards but couldn’t clear the rough on a 190 yard par 3.
I have the utmost respect for the more elderly players. Most of them have played all their days and there comes a point when distance will be a problem for their enjoyment of the game.
I get a little annoyed at people who talk about how long a senior hits the ball as if that reflects how they score. This has been planted in every single golfers head from day one and it’s totally wrong. I still hear it all the time about players “he can hit the ball miles†it’s bull. I have played for 35 years and I know more big hitters who cant putt, chip or pitch for toffee. Oh, but he can hit the ball miles and that’s all that matters in this game………….bull.
In saying all that I don’t think a “senior forward tee†should start until a player is 60 or 65. By that time I think senior players would be grateful of a few yards and it is factual that you loose distance as the years roll on.
Just the other day I had a round of golf with John Findlay and a couple of his friends. All these players hit the ball further than me and I’m the lowest HC player.
Herbie
Tour Winner
I understand Tomo's argument when a senior cannot clear a hazard area even with a 150 yd shot, but surely the easiest answer would be for the senior members to get togeather and have a few yards cut back on the hazard and if thats not viable then have a new tee built for all to use.
The logistics of so many variations in tees, especially where serious comps are concerned is just too confusing and would be open to critique by many.
A senior playing off single figure h/c getting a forward tee advantage on some holes I can think of would have me livid. How can you prove they cannot clear the area?
Lets say I tee off in a comp and miss hit the ball and dont clear the rough, he hits from a forward tee and clears it, where is the evidence that his shot was genuine or the shot of a cheat? When and how is it to be assessed?
I know some senior golfers who would take me and many others to the cleaners if they had a forward tee advantage and it is precisely for reasons like those that makes it all questionable.
As for clearing distances or carry goes, course design is the problem there and as members, seniors(who are never short of a few words to say)should bring about changes to the design not create a situation that would be a major advantage to some but small advantage to others.
As for the alternative h/c argument, in that if a senior plays well off forward tees that would also be reflected in h/c. True, but only gradually and a few trophies could be collected before correct adjustment is made.
If we give advantage to those who cannot hit more than 150 to clear a hazard of 170 or more, what the hell do we do for someone who can only hit 100yds??? or someone who can only best 80 yds, how will they feel if mr senior 150 hitter gets twenty yds advantage and they only get the same.
I sympathise with many of the probs faced by seniors but a lot of the probs have too many variables to fit into one glove. H/c system is the best way along with sensible course design.
The logistics of so many variations in tees, especially where serious comps are concerned is just too confusing and would be open to critique by many.
A senior playing off single figure h/c getting a forward tee advantage on some holes I can think of would have me livid. How can you prove they cannot clear the area?
Lets say I tee off in a comp and miss hit the ball and dont clear the rough, he hits from a forward tee and clears it, where is the evidence that his shot was genuine or the shot of a cheat? When and how is it to be assessed?
I know some senior golfers who would take me and many others to the cleaners if they had a forward tee advantage and it is precisely for reasons like those that makes it all questionable.
As for clearing distances or carry goes, course design is the problem there and as members, seniors(who are never short of a few words to say)should bring about changes to the design not create a situation that would be a major advantage to some but small advantage to others.
As for the alternative h/c argument, in that if a senior plays well off forward tees that would also be reflected in h/c. True, but only gradually and a few trophies could be collected before correct adjustment is made.
If we give advantage to those who cannot hit more than 150 to clear a hazard of 170 or more, what the hell do we do for someone who can only hit 100yds??? or someone who can only best 80 yds, how will they feel if mr senior 150 hitter gets twenty yds advantage and they only get the same.
I sympathise with many of the probs faced by seniors but a lot of the probs have too many variables to fit into one glove. H/c system is the best way along with sensible course design.
Herbie
Tour Winner
When Im old and knackered, if I cannot play the same course as everyone else, I will find one I can play, playing from a different tee is almost like playing a different course in the same competition. If I get to the stage where I cannot do it, I dont want to affect those who can, Id just plod around in friendlies or find a shorter course.
I wouldnt feel the same about some of the prestigeous courses Ive played if I had to play off a forward tee, perhaps they should invite jack back to agusta and give him 20yds a hole, he might win another major.
A large number of people dont start golf till they are retired or in later working life, most of them never reach a standard of golf that includes reasonable distance hitting, after all these years you would think course design would reflect the market.
I wouldnt feel the same about some of the prestigeous courses Ive played if I had to play off a forward tee, perhaps they should invite jack back to agusta and give him 20yds a hole, he might win another major.
A large number of people dont start golf till they are retired or in later working life, most of them never reach a standard of golf that includes reasonable distance hitting, after all these years you would think course design would reflect the market.
