Well said Andrew Neil

[Deleted member 16999]

I have answered plenty already. You have a lot of questions yourself.

On Saudi, it is the heartland of the Sunni branch of Islam, the same branch as IS, and has a lot of influence in the area. It is also heavily courted and supported by the US and Europe so could act as a regional proxy, and it is sufficiently wealthy and capable to take action regionally. In doing so, it could others along with them, for example it has decent relations with both Iran and Israel who are two other key dominos in the complicated local politics. Saudi is also pretty stable (if rather repressive) and not vulnerable to a coup or other major change anytime soon.

Any answers or insight from you?

So you still avoid the question, What do we do until Saudi Arabia get involved, if ever?
I have agreed with you on your historical posts that we've blundered in, I have stated we need all countries in the Region involved.
You haven't answered the above, What do we do in the mean time?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

No, but I know people who have been involved in civilian reconstruction.

However the reconstruction might not have been needed had the US and Europe not covertly supported the Taliban against the pro-Soviet leader, who was a secular moderniser. Ironically, the US, UK and others supported people who could be called terrorists, and were guerrilla fighters almost exactly like IS. History does tend to have a sense of irony sometimes.

How far back do you want to go ? Crusades ?

But you haven't been there and haven't seen the schools created , the hospitals created , the trade being started , shops and streets thriving with business - it's not perfect and there is still a long way to go but a lot of good has been done by the UK and US forces over there

So the jury is very much not back.

But you can keep focusing on history and blame - that can't be changed - the future can be

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Cant' actually see why this is causing such a fuss. It simply picks up and highlights a rather large and crucial error.

Whether it's a large and crucial error it is irrelevant to the thread.

 

[Ethan]

How far back do you want to go ? Crusades ?

But you haven't been there and haven't seen the schools created , the hospitals created , the trade being started , shops and streets thriving with business - it's not perfect and there is still a long way to go but a lot of good has been done by the UK and US forces over there

So the jury is very much not back.

But you can keep focusing on history and blame - that can't be changed - the future can be

Have you never heard the expression that if you fail to learn from history, you are doomed to relive it?

There is no better example of that than the Middle East in which western interference only ever causes more trouble.

And the relevant comparison point for Afghanistan is not between the middle of the recent conflict to now, but from the 80s to the middle of the conflict. Both are history, you just choose which frame of reference suits your argument.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Have you never heard the expression that if you fail to learn from history, you are doomed to relive it?

There is no better example of that than the Middle East in which western interference only ever causes more trouble.

And the relevant comparison point for Afghanistan is not between the middle of the recent conflict to now, but from the 80s to the middle of the conflict. Both are history, you just choose which frame of reference suits your argument.

What I chose to do is concntrate on the future instead of delving back into the past and dragging history to look for blame

Afghanistan from my expirence is a better place at the moment than it was in 2002 and can continue to improve and thrive.

What happened in the 80's happened - can't change that now but the future can be changed

 

[FairwayDodger]

The BNP/EDL/SDL/UKIP/Rangers Supporter types really hate it.

Hugely disappointed and a bit hurt by this post. Totally uncalled for, try to keep your hatred out of it for a change.

 

[bladeplayer]

I only gave an opinion , was not making a speech , wouldn't know enough about it to preach , I did find it very strange you only highlighted half of the last line tho , you didn't bother with the "I don't have any answers " part ..

Anyhow will leave it at that ..

Indeed, and I assume that applies to your speech too. In this case, backed up with a coherent plan.

Some people have compared IS to the Nazis. Not a good companion. The Nazis wore uniforms and marched together a lot. IS are a guerrilla band who can melt away into the population. Not so easy to target. Lots of potential for collateral damage.

If the Middle East conflicts have taught us anything it is that the old refrain that things couldn't possibly be any worse if [these guys] were removed is often wrong. Things have shown a nasty habit of getting much worse with each well (or not)-intentioned blunder. The worst of all may be Iran and their nuclear ambitions precipitating Israel to do something reckless.

I haven't been keeping up with all the thread, so has anyone answered the question of why Saudi, with a military bigger and better funded than the UK, and a Sunni Muslim ideology, can't sort out these Sunni IS guys themselves?

 

[Ethan]

What I chose to do is concntrate on the future instead of delving back into the past and dragging history to look for blame

Afghanistan from my expirence is a better place at the moment than it was in 2002 and can continue to improve and thrive.

What happened in the 80's happened - can't change that now but the future can be changed

Thanks. I have seen Back to the Future, but despite the convincing story, I generally agree that the past can't be changed.

However, as I said, it contains important lessons which should not be ignored. Yet they often are, and the hole is dug even deeper.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Thanks. I have seen Back to the Future, but despite the convincing story, I generally agree that the past can't be changed.

However, as I said, it contains important lessons which should not be ignored. Yet they often are, and the hole is dug even deeper.

Still waiting for you to answer the questions about the here and now!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Bombing Daesh - Notwithstanding I can see no framework for the bombing that is even now being done - friends, allies, enemy, objectives, what after? etc - the current impetus and UN resolution has been driven by the Paris atrocities. And we in UK feel that joiing in the bombing will in some way reduce the probability of UK being so attacked.

Well I fear that the UK will almost certainly suffer such an attack - as the enemy who will perpetrate this is largely within or will arrive unnoticed - it is not in Syria or Iraq. The bombing will therefore, by definition, have failed to protect us in the UK - indeed our involvement in the bombing may well have been the driver for the attack we will suffer rather than a deterrent (bombing is not a deterrent in the way that Trident may be).

The we have arming our police as I heard one radio presenter loudly advocate yesterday evening - arm our police like the French police are armed. Well that worked well didn't it.

Maybe the truth is that we can't stop attacks on the UK by any action abroad. We can definitely through ground forces - not necessarily involving UK - limit the spread of Daesh - and then in time drive into a hole where they can be destroyed.

But as far as reducing the risk of atrocity in the UK? - I think our answer may simply/only be in the hands of such as the immigrant Syrian community. Were we to welcome that community in good numbers with love and caring, and provide all support we can - that community will be on our side - and the more they feel part of us that is themselves also. And they can be our eyes and ears on the ground and in their communities - identifying and handing over those rogue elements that they suspect as being a risk to us all. After all we aren't going to have many 'bobbies on the beat' if projected government police funding cutbacks due to be announced next week are anything to go by.

 

[Ethan]

Still waiting for you to answer the questions about the here and now!

Still waiting on you to say anything other than a question or a snarky remark. I have stated my position pretty clearly. You have only taken potshots at me and others.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Still waiting on you to say anything other than a question or a snarky remark. I have stated my position pretty clearly. You have only taken potshots at me and others.

Garbage, I've have not taken potshots at anyone, I have answered every question you have asked, you're the one asking for a healthy debate then ignoreing the same question over and over again, my belief is that's because you have no answer and choose to deflect and insult me.
One last time, What do we do about IS while we wait for other Middle East countries to get involved?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Garbage, I've have not taken potshots at anyone, I have answered every question you have asked, you're the one asking for a healthy debate then ignoreing the same question over and over again, my belief is that's because you have no answer and choose to deflect and insult me.
One last time, What do we do about IS while we wait for other Middle East countries to get involved?

We, the UK, need do nothing militarily other than provide such as intelligence and logistical support. Getting involved with air strikes using four Tornado aircraft seems to me to be no more than the UK not wanting to be 'left out' - I do not believe our involvement in airstrikes or not will make any difference to any military outcome or to our 'standing' in the international community - whatever that is in any case - and should only be considered at all when there is much more clarity about what air strikes are intended to achieve, and who our friends and enemies actually are.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

We, the UK, need do nothing militarily other than provide such as intelligence and logistical support. Getting involved with air strikes using four Tornado aircraft seems to me to be no more than the UK not wanting to be 'left out' - I do not believe our involvement in airstrikes or not will make any difference to any military outcome or to our 'standing' in the international community - whatever that is in any case - and should only be considered at all when there is much more clarity about what air strikes are intended to achieve, and who our friends and enemies actually are.

No issue with anything you suggest, unlike some, you are willing to try and help, whether that is exactly the way you describe or helping in another way, but to do zip because we've got it wrong in the past, imo is not the answer.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Article in today's l newspaper on first 100 Syrians going to be housed in Rothesay on the Isle of Bute. Loving that the article is accompanied by a great big photo of ... Tobermory

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

No issue with anything you suggest, unlike some, you are willing to try and help, whether that is exactly the way you describe or helping in another way, but to do zip because we've got it wrong in the past, imo is not the answer.

We cannot stop military action by the USA, France and Russia - so we may as well try help make their action as effective as possible - which in truth will not be very effective without boots on the ground. That said I'm not actually that comfortable with us supporting bombing even through intelligence.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

We cannot stop military action by the USA, France and Russia - so we may as well try help make their action as effective as possible - which in truth will not be very effective without boots on the ground. That said I'm not actually that comfortable with us supporting bombing even through intelligence.

Me neither, but the world cannot simply pull out, wait for Middle East countries to do something and see if IS go away.

 

[Sweep]

I think the jury is now in.

The Americans have this paranoid fear of commies, and in Afghanistan and Latin America is has blinded them into allowing much worse to happen instead.

Ah, isn't hindsight a wonderful thing?
The Russians going into Afganistan was the biggest worry by far at the time and actually went some way to justify "America's paranoia of communism". Remember, this was an invasion of a peaceful nation by the biggest country on earth. Totally unnecessary and unjustified. At the time no-one understood why the Russians had done it other than expansion of communism. Much of it turned out to be to test the west's reaction, a kind of bigger example of continually threatening our air space today. If the Americans had done nothing, it could have turned out to be much worse. Islamic Terrorism had not even been conceived at the time. What the Americans and to a lesser extent the rest of NATO did over 40 years, led to the downfall of communism and more freedom for millions. I appreciate that may go against your own political views, but it's pretty clear the majority of those in the west don't want to live in a communist country, and in a democracy that's what counts. Thank God.
Yes, we and the Americans got some things wrong, but in 1989 the argument was won when the Berlin Wall came down. I will be eternally grateful, not least because it allows me to post my opinions on here. As they say, I may disagree with your opinions, but I will fight for your right to express them.
Also, if you are not going to read the thread and others answers to your posts, why bother posting?

 

[delc]

Article in today's l newspaper on first 100 Syrians going to be housed in Rothesay on the Isle of Bute. Loving that the article is accompanied by a great big photo of ... Tobermory

Well it's in Scotland, isn't it? We should rehouse these migrants in the coldest, most inhospitable parts of Scotland and employ then on zero hours, minimum wage jobs, preferably outdoors. Then they will soon want to return to their much warmer homelands! :mmm:

 

[User20205]

Well it's in Scotland, isn't it? We should rehouse these migrants in the coldest, most inhospitable parts of Scotland and employ then on zero hours, minimum wage jobs, preferably outdoors. Then they will soon want to return to their much warmer homelands! :mmm:

You seem semi educated. How is it you can't grasp the different between refugees & migrants