Urban Myth Golf Rules

[Val]

Relief from the path and relief from the fence are two different things.

Absolutely, but if the fence interferes with the NPR then it's technically not relief.

What's this 'full relief' concept? Been on some dodgy sites?

Call it relief or full relief it is what it is. You are entitled to relief if you land on the path, that is relief including your stance and swing, if your swing is impeeded then it's not relief hence the term "full relief". That is why then the neareasty point would be on the opposite side of the path which by chance it so happens you get a good lie.

 

[Val]

So to take advantage of 'relief' from such as my track - then relief for ALL of stance, swing and lie must be taken - yoiu can't cherry pick.

The lie has nothing to do with it, if you get a bad lie at the NPR then so be it as long as you have a stance and can make a swing.

The biggest confusion is always nearest point of relief rather than best point of relief.

 

[CMAC]

Absolutely, but if the fence interferes with the NPR then it's technically not relief.



Call it relief or full relief it is what it is. You are entitled to relief if you land on the path, that is relief including your stance and swing, if your swing is impeeded then it's not relief hence the term "full relief". That is why then the neareasty point would be on the opposite side of the path which by chance it so happens you get a good lie.

isn't it relief from the path thats important, if your near the fence then that's hard luck?

 

[Val]

isn't it relief from the path thats important, if your near the fence then that's hard luck?

Im talking about relief from the path, if the fence is stopping you getting relief from the path then it's not relief.

According to SwingsitlikeHogan's further posts the chances of taking relief fence side is impossible because of the space between the path and the fence.

 

[duncan mackie]

So to take advantage of 'relief' from such as my track - then relief for ALL of stance, swing and lie must be taken - yoiu can't cherry pick.

I understand you to mean 'where the ball lies' - not sure where all the issues about that term are appearing from!

and yes

just to tidy up some of the other thinking/comments, and then of course go on to risk confusing things further.....

we know that the OOB 'line' is the inside edge (to the course) of the fence, and for a ball to be OOB all of it must lie over that line - so it follows that basically for the fence to interfere with a swing the ball will be OOB and would therefore have to be re-dropped for that reason, rather than because the fence interfered All that assumes that it's possible to establish a point that's not OOB and for which the player is not standing on the path to address the ball.....which I think we have concluded is unlikely on the basis of what's been presented......finally....which means that the NPR will be the other way etc etc.

now the extra bits.....

let's assume that the fence is in fact a white line, and the player is left handed. In that case the player will have an NPR to the right of the track, even though he's standing OOB.

so far so good - let's put the fence back

the left handed golfer still has an NPR for a left handed shot, despite the fence. To establish that this was not a valid NPR he would have to claim that he would play the shot RH because of the fence (entirely reasonable choice) and illustrate it in the same way as a right handed golfer etc. Replace fence with stakes and it will be a matter of whether a stake interferes with his swing as to whether it's reasonable for him to claim he is playing it RH.

Now a question, to see whose still following this

If it was the fence, and he's illustrated that he would play RH, and can't establish an NRP on the right hand side, which way would he swing to establish the correct NPR on the left? Having dropped his ball does he have to play it RH? (OK that's 2 questions but related)

 

[muttleee]

Im talking about relief from the path, if the fence is stopping you getting relief from the path then it's not relief.

According to SwingsitlikeHogan's further posts the chances of taking relief fence side is impossible because of the space between the path and the fence.

If the fence means that you're forced to stand on the path after taking a drop then yes, that is not full relief since both ball and stance must be clear of the obstacle (i.e. the path, in this case). The nearest point of relief may well be on the other side of the path in that case.

 

[CMAC]

I understand you to mean 'where the ball lies' - not sure where all the issues about that term are appearing from!

and yes

just to tidy up some of the other thinking/comments, and then of course go on to risk confusing things further.....

we know that the OOB 'line' is the inside edge (to the course) of the fence, and for a ball to be OOB all of it must lie over that line - so it follows that basically for the fence to interfere with a swing the ball will be OOB and would therefore have to be re-dropped for that reason, rather than because the fence interfered All that assumes that it's possible to establish a point that's not OOB and for which the player is not standing on the path to address the ball.....which I think we have concluded is unlikely on the basis of what's been presented......finally....which means that the NPR will be the other way etc etc.

now the extra bits.....

let's assume that the fence is in fact a white line, and the player is left handed. In that case the player will have an NPR to the right of the track, even though he's standing OOB.

so far so good - let's put the fence back

the left handed golfer still has an NPR for a left handed shot, despite the fence. To establish that this was not a valid NPR he would have to claim that he would play the shot RH because of the fence (entirely reasonable choice) and illustrate it in the same way as a right handed golfer etc. Replace fence with stakes and it will be a matter of whether a stake interferes with his swing as to whether it's reasonable for him to claim he is playing it RH.

Now a question, to see whose still following this

If it was the fence, and he's illustrated that he would play RH, and can't establish an NRP on the right hand side, which way would he swing to establish the correct NPR on the left? Having dropped his ball does he have to play it RH? (OK that's 2 questions but related)

I would say no, as it's a different lie and situation from the other side of the path

 

[duncan mackie]

I would say no, as it's a different lie and situation from the other side of the path

correct, but he has to establish his NPR as if he was swinging the same club RH.

in fact, once he drops the ball, whilst he has to establish that his drop is valid by reference to the RH swing with the same club, he can stand on the path and play it LH again with a different club or start a new relief situation for his LH swing because he's standing on the path.

 

[Foxholer]

If it was the fence, and he's illustrated that he would play RH, and can't establish an NRP on the right hand side, which way would he swing to establish the correct NPR on the left? Having dropped his ball does he have to play it RH? (OK that's 2 questions but related)

1. Whichever way he prefers
2. No. No different to changing his mind about the choice of club.

Im talking about relief from the path, if the fence is stopping you getting relief from the path then it's not relief.

It's the fact that it's an OOB fence that's important. Drop can't be/roll into OB. Tough luck if it's a tree though - NPR could well be in the middle of the tree! And if OOB subsequently impedes swing - as it certainly can, depending on what shot is subsequently chosen - then that's also tough.

 

[sev112]

I understand you to mean 'where the ball lies' - not sure where all the issues about that term are appearing from!

and yes

just to tidy up some of the other thinking/comments, and then of course go on to risk confusing things further.....

we know that the OOB 'line' is the inside edge (to the course) of the fence, and for a ball to be OOB all of it must lie over that line - so it follows that basically for the fence to interfere with a swing the ball will be OOB and would therefore have to be re-dropped for that reason, rather than because the fence interfered All that assumes that it's possible to establish a point that's not OOB and for which the player is not standing on the path to address the ball.....which I think we have concluded is unlikely on the basis of what's been presented......finally....which means that the NPR will be the other way etc etc.

now the extra bits.....

let's assume that the fence is in fact a white line, and the player is left handed. In that case the player will have an NPR to the right of the track, even though he's standing OOB.

so far so good - let's put the fence back

the left handed golfer still has an NPR for a left handed shot, despite the fence. To establish that this was not a valid NPR he would have to claim that he would play the shot RH because of the fence (entirely reasonable choice) and illustrate it in the same way as a right handed golfer etc. Replace fence with stakes and it will be a matter of whether a stake interferes with his swing as to whether it's reasonable for him to claim he is playing it RH.

Now a question, to see whose still following this

If it was the fence, and he's illustrated that he would play RH, and can't establish an NRP on the right hand side, which way would he swing to establish the correct NPR on the left? Having dropped his ball does he have to play it RH? (OK that's 2 questions but related)

Duncan

So how does a typical 3 ball medal group determine whether I can merrily decide certain shots from relief that I decide I'd like to play left handed because it gets me a better drop that I then decide to play right handed

It's feasible in the OP example to be able to determine what is reasonable, but why can't I say "because of the wind and the lie of the land I would normally play this shot left handed with the back of my wedge " ? And then drop in a nicer place and then say "actually I've changed my mind, it would be better right handed"

What do the rules advise ?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Excellent - thanks all. And so I think the advice I would give my PP who's ball is on the RHS of the track.

Local rule says that relief can be taken from this track;
You must try and find your NPR and in the first instance you must try to the RHS of the ytrack;
If you wish to take relief and find your NPR you must first take a stance off the track but as close to the track as you safely can;
You then take the club you would have intend to used to play your shot had you not been on the track;
You make to address the ball so as to identfy your NPR at which you will take a drop;
If it is clear that to play a shot your ball would have to be OOB you can take relief to the LHS of the track.
Your NPR to the LHS of the track is by definition the point at the edge (of the rough) and the track - but not on the track - closest to where your ball lies and not mearer to the hole;
If once dropped your balls bounces onto the track you can take a re-drop;
If the same thing happens you place your ball at the point your ball struck the ground on the second drop - as long as sthat is not nearer the hole;
If it is, then continue dropping until ball either does not go onto the track, or the point of first contact with the ground is not nearer the hole;

Have I got this right?

 

[CMAC]

Excellent - thanks all. And so I think the advice I would give my PP who's ball is on the RHS of the track.

Local rule says that relief can be taken from this track;
You must try and find your NPR and in the first instance you must try to the RHS of the ytrack;
If you wish to take relief and find your NPR you must first take a stance off the track but as close to the track as you safely can;
You then take the club you would have intend to used to play your shot had you not been on the track;
You make to address the ball so as to identfy your NPR at which you will take a drop;
If it is clear that to play a shot your ball would have to be OOB you can take relief to the LHS of the track.
Your NPR to the LHS of the track is by definition the point at the edge (of the rough) and the track - but not on the track - closest to where your ball lies and not mearer to the hole;
If once dropped your balls bounces onto the track you can take a re-drop;
If the same thing happens you place your ball at the point your ball struck the ground on the second drop - as long as sthat is not nearer the hole;
If it is, then continue dropping until ball either does not go onto the track, or the point of first contact with the ground is not nearer the hole;

Have I got this right?

bold part.........then within 1 clublength of that NPR..........is my understanding

 

[Bobmysterkaymer]

Standing water must come over your shoe to be classed as standing! #classic

 

[stevelev]

Youre only allowed to do it with the back of your hand though.....

Or a towel.........................

 

[toyboy54]

had one on Sunday,playing behind 4 juniors and slow going,sauntering across fairways,all 4 selecting each others way to play
the shot etc.caught up with them on a par 5,3 juniors in front of them searching for a ball in RHS rough,I whistled and signed to them to get wave next lot through,they said they could'nt play through as ones in front 'were playing a tie'.I told them that that a tie had no priority on the course,only the committee can specify priority i.e.club championship .Anyway there were 7 of them on the next tee but they soon moved quick style when we appeared.
Got round to 12 and this chap comes over wanting to know who had whistled and gesticulated to the juniors and set a bad example
etc,I said me and explained why....turns out he[junior convener]did'nt know this and did'nt think that the ones looking for the ball
should have waved anyone through as they would just be held up further on due to a mixed comp going on.
I did suggest that maybe he should look at a rule book and that we could run a night for not only the juniors,but the adults on the tee...3 of whom did'nt know of this either!!!!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

bold part.........then within 1 clublength of that NPR..........is my understanding

Yes indeed - missed that out. As we have clarified here. The one club length is nothing to do with identifying the NPR but is only to do with the drop itself.

One further clarification (since we've gone this far). If in my example scenario the ball is not on but just to the RHS of the track, and in bounds, but my stance is on the track - then I would go through the steps to take relief precisely as already discussed. In which case asx before and for the same reasons I'd end up dropping to LHS of track.

 

[duncan mackie]

Yes indeed - missed that out. As we have clarified here. The one club length is nothing to do with identifying the NPR but is only to do with the drop itself.

One further clarification (since we've gone this far). If in my example scenario the ball is not on but just to the RHS of the track, and in bounds, but my stance is on the track - then I would go through the steps to take relief precisely as already discussed. In which case asx before and for the same reasons I'd end up dropping to LHS of track.

yes, if you wished too take relief...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

so far so good - let's put the fence back

the left handed golfer still has an NPR for a left handed shot, despite the fence. To establish that this was not a valid NPR he would have to claim that he would play the shot RH because of the fence (entirely reasonable choice) and illustrate it in the same way as a right handed golfer etc.

Going back to your explanation - one bit I don't quite get is in bold. I though that when determining NPR you took stance, club and swing that you would have done from where the was ball originally stopped - but from which the player is taking relief. How then can the LH player claim his NPR is not valid on the basis of he would play it RH becuase of the fence - and to do so he would have then to stand on the track. To claim his NPR is not valid on basis of a RH shot surely means he would have to claim he would have been playing RH from the original position on the track? I thought relief and all it entails was based upon what you would have done had you not got relief from where the ball finished up. See what I mean.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

yes, if you wished too take relief...

Yup - you don't have to take relief unless local rule says you must take relief - and if you do choose to take relief you can't cherry pick (see earlier)

 

[JustOne]

bold part.........then within 1 clublength of that NPR..........is my understanding

and it can roll up to 2 club lengths..... so you might end up 3 club lengths away from the NPR by the time you've finished

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something people don't seem to know either