Upper & Lower Body Disassociation

[One Planer]

After a video review of the backwing in my last lesson, aside from a small issue I'm correcting, he's happy to now move on to transition from back swing to down swing. In my back swing I have a good head position (Very still and centred), good posture and have a lot of width (... Apparently) in my backswing.

Moving now into transition. As I understand what he said, he wants me to begin my downswing with my lower half, before my shoulders have finished turning in the back swing. Something Tom Watson also advocates:

"In the best swings the lower body starts forward while the upper body is still turning back. The left hip turns toward the target as the shoulders continue to coil. That takes terrific timing and a lot of practice."

I have been given a couple of drills that appear to be working but the change is far from ingrained yet.

I have a question for you knowledgable folk:

Is this that can cause the illusion of a 'pause' at the transition between back and down swings or is their a physical 'stop' at the top?

I hit the range yesterday to try and make a start on the changes. I it the ball, probably, the best I have in weeks, if not months with a much more consistent flight. The last ball I hit, I really felt my lower half turning forward, but my arms were still at the top. This gave a fantastic flight, great trajectory and mucho distance :lol:

A second question:

Does anyone know of any current tour pro's that have video recorded on YouTube that do this?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this :thup:

 

[Foxholer]

Fancy title for a description of 'flexibility'!

I believe Rory has one of the most noticeable hip movements, but not sure whether his sequencing is what you want,

Dustin Johnson may also be a candidate, but there's a lot to disregard in his swing too.

I keep going to most of the South Africans as 'classic' model swings.

And you could always ask you Pro for his recommendation of one to use.

Not something my lazy old body has a great affinity with, so Good Luck!

 

[One Planer]

Fancy title for a description of 'flexibility'!

I believe Rory has one of the most noticeable hip movements, but not sure whether his sequencing is what you want,

Dustin Johnson may also be a candidate, but there's a lot to disregard in his swing too.

I keep going to most of the South Africans as 'classic' model swings.

And you could always ask you Pro for his recommendation of one to use.

Not something my lazy old body has a great affinity with, so Good Luck!

Thanks Foxy :thup:

I'm only really interested in the brief second they go through transition. Forget DJ's bowed wrist ot Rory's bonkers flexability.

My Pro suggested Freddie Couples as an example, probably because his swing is so smooth.

Despite my size. (6ft and 15 stone) I'm pretty flexible. During the lesson when we were moving onto this my pro had me do a few things to test flexability and was more than satisfied I could do this

 

[Doh]

They were looking at Gary Woodland's swing on sky the other day and said he did this another was Mark Lishman.(spelling)

 

[One Planer]

They were looking at Gary Woodland's swing on sky the other day and said he did this another was Mark Lishman.(spelling)

Cracking shout on Gary Woodland!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwwyjFPoS38

Thanks for that Doh :thup:

 

[Doh]

Your very welcome.:thup:

 

[London mike 61]

I believe the ' pause ' at the top is caused by the raising of the left heel in the backswing and as the downswing is about to begin , the left heel comes down in a matter of a second turning the hips ever so slightly thus giving the impression that there is a pause. I hope this makes sense.

 

[standrew]

Sequence involves movement from legs-hips-shoulders-arms-hands. Rory is the best example on tour, but he doesnt fire each part individually (check out arnold palmer somax analysis video). Sequence is pretty much the main thing i concentrate on in my swing, and i find i get crap consistency if i fail to do it. Here are two excercises i do everyday

- stand up with arms stretched out horizontally. Just turn your upper body fully to the right then back and to the left. Easy.

- (more tricky) stand in a star stance-turn right to your max as you do in the golf swing, making sure left knee is also turned. Then fire knee, hips, shoulder then arms.

You probably will want to try doing lower body alone first, because its a bit tricky and lower body is generally the crucial mising bit. I work on getting the most seperation between all parts. This give you more consistency and a fair bit extra distance.

Hope this helps.

 

[One Planer]

Sequence involves movement from legs-hips-shoulders-arms-hands. Rory is the best example on tour, but he doesnt fire each part individually (check out arnold palmer somax analysis video). Sequence is pretty much the main thing i concentrate on in my swing, and i find i get crap consistency if i fail to do it. Here are two excercises i do everyday

- stand up with arms stretched out horizontally. Just turn your upper body fully to the right then back and to the left. Easy.

- (more tricky) stand in a star stance-turn right to your max as you do in the golf swing, making sure left knee is also turned. Then fire knee, hips, shoulder then arms.

You probably will want to try doing lower body alone first, because its a bit tricky and lower body is generally the crucial mising bit. I work on getting the most seperation between all parts. This give you more consistency and a fair bit extra distance.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the exercises StA :thup:

My pro has me working through 2 drills, both can be done with, or without a club so I have the option to do them at home and at the range. Early days but the signs are encouraging

 

[Foxholer]

Thanks Foxy :thup:

I'm only really interested in the brief second they go through transition. Forget DJ's bowed wrist ot Rory's bonkers flexability.

My Pro suggested Freddie Couples as an example, probably because his swing is so smooth.

Despite my size. (6ft and 15 stone) I'm pretty flexible. During the lesson when we were moving onto this my pro had me do a few things to test flexability and was more than satisfied I could do this

Actually, I was wrong! DJ is not an example. Freddie certainly is though.

TGM actually have a training aid for that sequencing! Used it at The Shire one Saturday when we were waiting on the verdict about whether course would open (it didn't!). It looks like a twisted, bent, sawn-off trolley (the U bit) with a training grip! You swing back so that the U bit sits on your shoulder; try to keep it there while turning/sliding the hips; then drop/push down the hands etc......

 

[Khamelion]

I believe the ' pause ' at the top is caused by the raising of the left heel in the backswing and as the downswing is about to begin , the left heel comes down in a matter of a second turning the hips ever so slightly thus giving the impression that there is a pause. I hope this makes sense.

The left heel should never come off the ground. The only reason is does, is that the golfer has over rotated or as back problems and during the core rotation lifting the heel relieve any back pain they would otherwise encounter.

If you are flexible enough, you should be able to rotate around your core and have your feet stay firmly planted.

I've just been through this in my lessons and after getting myself to keep my feet stable my ball striking became a lot more solid.

On the OP point of disassociation, this is exactly where I'm at in my swing development. My teacher has my what is effectively dropping the club so that the head is behind me, this makes my left shoulder rise slightly and give the illusion that my downswing has started by pushing my left hip forward toward the target.

He has got me to try and keep my left shoulder point to slightly right of my target line and keep it there for what feels like an eternity, at the same time my right hip is pushing forward and hips are turning to face the target, then naturally my shoulders follow round with the club coming into impact and follow through with full extension.

I believe the pause at the top of the swing is the motion of the club dropping in behind your waist, it's not really a pause just shift in direction which looks like a slight pause.

 

[Foxholer]

The left heel should never come off the ground. The only reason is does, is that the golfer has over rotated or as back problems and during the core rotation lifting the heel relieve any back pain they would otherwise encounter.

If you are flexible enough, you should be able to rotate around your core and have your feet stay firmly planted.

I've just been through this in my lessons and after getting myself to keep my feet stable my ball striking became a lot more solid.

Absolutely nothing wrong with the left heel coming off the ground! As long as it gets back down pretty quick on the Downswing!

Plenty of Major Winners lifted the left heel! Tom Watson was/is one! Some fella named Hogan did too and it didn't hurt Nicklaus either! Hey, with that list, maybe raising the left heel is what SHOULD happen!

Keeping the left heel on the ground is a good way for a swayer to get out of that habit (and rotate properly) though!

 

[Jimbooo]

The left heel should never come off the ground. The only reason is does, is that the golfer has over rotated or as back problems and during the core rotation lifting the heel relieve any back pain they would otherwise encounter.

Tell that to Jack!

 

[the_coach]

Moving now into transition. As I understand what he said, he wants me to begin my downswing with my lower half, before my shoulders have finished turning in the back swing. Something Tom Watson also advocates:

"In the best swings the lower body starts forward while the upper body is still turning back. The left hip turns toward the target as the shoulders continue to coil. That takes terrific timing and a lot of practice."

I have been given a couple of drills that appear to be working but the change is far from ingrained yet.

I have a question for you knowledgable folk:

Is this that can cause the illusion of a 'pause' at the transition between back and down swings or is their a physical 'stop' at the top?

I hit the range yesterday to try and make a start on the changes. I it the ball, probably, the best I have in weeks, if not months with a much more consistent flight. The last ball I hit, I really felt my lower half turning forward, but my arms were still at the top. This gave a fantastic flight, great trajectory and mucho distance :lol:

A second question:

Does anyone know of any current tour pro's that have video recorded on YouTube that do this?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this :thup:

Hey Gareth, newbie to the forum here, but not new to golf.

In answer to your 1st question in short is, in every proper and good golf swing the transition to the forward swing has to start from the ground up. It's also really the answer to your second question too in a way.

Every elite golfer whether they are Cat 1 am, or tour pro will do this. A RH golfer will start with weight into the ball of the left foot into the ground (it's that ground force that provides in the end the source of swing speed as it becomes an anchor for the hips to clear round then then torso followed by the shoulders arms hands shaft club head. (groundforce often overlooked but is key to produce speed through impact, friction anchor point in the inside of the right foot going back, then left foot starting the transition: if you tried a golf swing without that groundforce friction the club head wouldn't be moving very quickly at all, a swing on ice for instance taking the assumption theoretically you could stay upright and make one would produce very little stored energy/speed through impact! as there's nothing to brace against.)
Think of it as a relay race with every bit hitting a point where they pass on energy to next which culminates with optimum speed through impact. Lead foot, lead knee, lead hip, hips, torso, sternum, shoulders, arms. hands, shaft, finally club head has all the sequenced produced energy through impact.
It is indeed this start of the transition in the left foot, moves left knee back, hip slightly towards target (couple inches max) before the hip turns and clears making space for arms hands and club to come through square to provide proper impact conditions.
This start at the left foot and lower body is why there sometimes appears to be a pause at the top, as you suggest it's an illusion really as movement has started down below and the pause is just the change of direction from going up to coming down, it's more evident in a smoother swinger rather than a fast tempo say like Nick Price but it's there still, it's just more difficult to see clearly in real time.
Often a Pro will ask a player making a swing change to feel the new move through an exaggeration of it, as often it takes this to effect a good change at all, "feel to real" often what we may feel we do is not what we are doing as anyone being shown their swing on vid will know.
If say a player has either been starting the swing back (transition) with the shoulders upper body hands and arms which throws the club out on the wrong path with all the then intendant repercussions that has, or if they've been starting the lower body and upper body at the same time therefore not having the 'relay race' and the passing on of energy bit by bit to, in the end product, optimum club-head speed. (shoulders of a tour Pro only moving at around 4 or 5mph but with efficient sequence of everything else it will produce driver swing speed of 110mph plus through impact)
Every tour pro, elite player has this lead foot, lead knee, lead hip move (hip moving a couple inches laterally towards target before starting to turn and clear which makes space for the arms, hands and club to swing through square to target line)
It's just that because of different tempos some players lower body starting before the upper body stops moving back are easier to see, some it appears not to be happening but it will be nonetheless still there to a varying degree dependent on the individual style/tempo of the player.
Hope this helps. Good look with grooving the change in your swing, stick with it, it's a key to better striking
Cheers.

 

[bobmac]

As I understand what he said, he wants me to begin my downswing with my lower half, before my shoulders have finished turning in the back swing.

I don't teach that as it more often than not throws the arms, hands and club outside the line.
Kiss

 

[bobmac]

Plenty of Major Winners lifted the left heel! Tom Watson was/is one! Some fella named Hogan did too and it didn't hurt Nicklaus either! Hey, with that list, maybe raising the left heel is what SHOULD happen!

Depends what the left knee does when you lift the left heel

 

[One Planer]

Hey Gareth, newbie to the forum here, but not new to golf.

In answer to your 1st question in short is, in every proper and good golf swing the transition to the forward swing has to start from the ground up. It's also really the answer to your second question too in a way.

Every elite golfer whether they are Cat 1 am, or tour pro will do this. A RH golfer will start with weight into the ball of the left foot into the ground (it's that ground force that provides in the end the source of swing speed as it becomes an anchor for the hips to clear round then then torso followed by the shoulders arms hands shaft club head. (groundforce often overlooked but is key to produce speed through impact, friction anchor point in the inside of the right foot going back, then left foot starting the transition: if you tried a golf swing without that groundforce friction the club head wouldn't be moving very quickly at all, a swing on ice for instance taking the assumption theoretically you could stay upright and make one would produce very little stored energy/speed through impact! as there's nothing to brace against.)
Think of it as a relay race with every bit hitting a point where they pass on energy to next which culminates with optimum speed through impact. Lead foot, lead knee, lead hip, hips, torso, sternum, shoulders, arms. hands, shaft, finally club head has all the sequenced produced energy through impact.
It is indeed this start of the transition in the left foot, moves left knee back, hip slightly towards target (couple inches max) before the hip turns and clears making space for arms hands and club to come through square to provide proper impact conditions.
This start at the left foot and lower body is why there sometimes appears to be a pause at the top, as you suggest it's an illusion really as movement has started down below and the pause is just the change of direction from going up to coming down, it's more evident in a smoother swinger rather than a fast tempo say like Nick Price but it's there still, it's just more difficult to see clearly in real time.
Often a Pro will ask a player making a swing change to feel the new move through an exaggeration of it, as often it takes this to effect a good change at all, "feel to real" often what we may feel we do is not what we are doing as anyone being shown their swing on vid will know.
If say a player has either been starting the swing back (transition) with the shoulders upper body hands and arms which throws the club out on the wrong path with all the then intendant repercussions that has, or if they've been starting the lower body and upper body at the same time therefore not having the 'relay race' and the passing on of energy bit by bit to, in the end product, optimum club-head speed. (shoulders of a tour Pro only moving at around 4 or 5mph but with efficient sequence of everything else it will produce driver swing speed of 110mph plus through impact)
Every tour pro, elite player has this lead foot, lead knee, lead hip move (hip moving a couple inches laterally towards target before starting to turn and clear which makes space for the arms, hands and club to swing through square to target line)
It's just that because of different tempos some players lower body starting before the upper body stops moving back are easier to see, some it appears not to be happening but it will be nonetheless still there to a varying degree dependent on the individual style/tempo of the player.
Hope this helps. Good look with grooving the change in your swing, stick with it, it's a key to better striking
Cheers.

That's some explanation! Thanks for that coach :thup:

I can't remember who, may have been Hogan, who said "You can't clear your hips quickly enough" or words to that effect.

With me for the most part always moving things in unison (Until lessons) that is going to take time to groove the relay race you describe.

I don't teach that as it more often than not throws the arms, hands and club outside the line.
Kiss

Bob, I'll always listen to what you have to say on a given subject. You're insights have always useful.

Is the OTT move caused by the shoulders following the hips?

 

[Foxholer]

Bob, I was being somewhat facetious (you should be able to recognise that by now!)

Depends what the left knee does when you lift the left heel

Left Knee straight is BAD though - pushes everything away from 'over the ball'. Not so much a sway as a Lean!

There's an interesting list of names in this vid - from 1:20 or so who are/have been Lead Heel Lifters (Phil and Bubba being Right rather than left!)! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoZHlBhdb2E Never got through the whole 17 mins of that one though. Tough to listen to Wayne De F at the best of times, let alone on a slow Laptop! I hope your lessons aren't as Dry as I imagine his would be!

I don't teach that as it more often than not throws the arms, hands and club outside the line.
Kiss

That was the warning the guy with the TGM aid gave me too. He said you almost need to feel as if you are pushing the club straight down (even though you aren't) to avoid Casting/OTT issues.

KISS definitely works, specially in Golf!

 

[Khamelion]

Absolutely nothing wrong with the left heel coming off the ground! As long as it gets back down pretty quick on the Downswing!

Plenty of Major Winners lifted the left heel! Tom Watson was/is one! Some fella named Hogan did too and it didn't hurt Nicklaus either! Hey, with that list, maybe raising the left heel is what SHOULD happen!

Keeping the left heel on the ground is a good way for a swayer to get out of that habit (and rotate properly) though!

Yes many players from yester year did lift the left heel during the back swing and yes there was nothing wrong with their game. However the modern players are much more flexible, have better training and gym routines, have better flexibility and have specific coaching for core strength and flexibility.

It's this flexibility that allows the likes of Woods, Stenson, Scott etc.... to make a full turn but keep their left heel grounded.

Call it progress in the physical aspect of the golfer, better nutrition, better understanding of strength work in the gym and better flexibility.

I agree there are many players who will lift their left heel, but lifting and thus allowing the left knee to move to far right can create all kinds of problems. This is why I said the left heel should never come of the ground. The exceptions being those that suffer back pain or look to really over rotate past 90 degrees. One prime example being John Daly.

 

[Khamelion]

Is the OTT move caused by the shoulders following the hips?

Yes

I know as it's what I suffered from for a long time. my hips would clear to quickly and my shoulders would follow, it all stemmed from me starting my downswing with a shoulder movement, in the belief that I had to turn the power on from the get go and I was using all the big muscles to instigate my swing, the result being I would throw out my arms at the top of the swing and have a massive out to in swing path.

If I could upload a video from 3yrs ago when I first stared playing you would see what I mean.