Two-shot penalty - fair enough?

[USER1999]

But what words would you use in the rule?

Don't cheat?

I get it's hard to distinguish, but blatant cheating should carry a harsher penalty.

If it is so obvious the player himself sees it, then he should call it. If he doesn't, then the harsher penalty applies.

 

[Swango1980]

Don't cheat?

I get it's hard to distinguish, but blatant cheating should carry a harsher penalty.

If it is so obvious the player himself sees it, then he should call it. If he doesn't, then the harsher penalty applies.

Blatant cheating gets disqualification, does it not. I'd imagine a ban from tour as well. Harsher than that?

 

[KenL]

I would rather see people penalised for petulance (throwing clubs, breaking or bending clubs, banging putters onto greens etc.) More than this.

 

[rulefan]

Don't cheat?

I get it's hard to distinguish, but blatant cheating should carry a harsher penalty.

If it is so obvious the player himself sees it, then he should call it. If he doesn't, then the harsher penalty applies.

But there still has to be a form of words to identify blatant cheating.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

But what words would you use in the rule?

Without camera evidence, how would you word the rule to ensure anyone else doing this are aware they’ve done it.

Surely any rule must be equally enforced/in place for all.

This penalty enforcement is not equitable, if the player themselves or anyone else in the group is unable to see the infringment then it how do you ensure no one else is “getting away” with it.

 

[Swango1980]

Without camera evidence, how would you word the rule to ensure anyone else doing this are aware they’ve done it.

Surely any rule must be equally enforced/in place for all.

This penalty enforcement is not equitable, if the player themselves or anyone else in the group is unable to see the infringment then it how do you ensure no one else is “getting away” with it.

Even with no cameras, who is to say one guy gets penalised for something a fellow competitor spots, and another doesn't get penalised as his fellow competitor sees nothing. In fact, I'd imagine it is very rare fellow competitors intensely watch the guys in their group hitting out of bunkers, so they'd unlikely ever see this, and probably wouldn't spot blatant cheating if it went on.

If you don't break the rule, no need to worry about cameras

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Even with no cameras, who is to say one guy gets penalised for something a fellow competitor spots, and another doesn't get penalised as his fellow competitor sees nothing. In fact, I'd imagine it is very rare fellow competitors intensely watch the guys in their group hitting out of bunkers, so they'd unlikely ever see this, and probably wouldn't spot blatant cheating if it went on.

If you don't break the rule, no need to worry about cameras

Without the camera 100% absolutely it wouldn’t of been seen, nobody in the field would of been affected/interested, the use of the camera makes a mockery of the fairness of the rule, without the camera it’s a level playing field.

The Rules were never discussed with cameras in mind.

 

[Swango1980]

Without the camera 100% absolutely it wouldn’t of been seen, nobody in the field would of been affected/interested, the use of the camera makes a mockery of the fairness of the rule, without the camera it’s a level playing field.

The Rules were never discussed with cameras in mind.

What should be done if the camera picked him up purposely smoothing big lumps of sand behind his ball. What should be done if camera sees a player move ball out of divot? Presumably it would be fair to use camera then, even if no one on the course saw the player doing it? If so, you still have the problem of which rules do you enforce, and which ones you ignore when using camera?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

What should be done if the camera picked him up purposely smoothing big lumps of sand behind his ball. What should be done if camera sees a player move ball out of divot? Presumably it would be fair to use camera then, even if no one on the course saw the player doing it? If so, you still have the problem of which rules do you enforce, and which ones you ignore when using camera?

Big difference in a player doing something intentionally to gain an advantage and the penalty we are discussing, the amount of sand he touched, totally unaware, had no impact on his shot.

I know the rule and we accept it, but moving forward commonsense has to be used, comparing this to extreme examples is simply deflection.

 

[Swango1980]

Big difference in a player doing something intentionally to gain an advantage and the penalty we are discussing, the amount of sand he touched, totally unaware, had no impact on his shot.

I know the rule and we accept it, but moving forward commonsense has to be used, comparing this to extreme examples is simply deflection.

It is great using common sense, until someone gets away with something dubious, where some say a player gained no advantage, and others say the player would have gained an advantage.

At least now the rules are pretty much as close to black and white as you'd hope to be.

P.S I simply used the extreme examples to make it clear that no one would dispute television evidence in those cases. So, you have the thousands of potential incidents in between, many subjective, where some will say using TV is fine, others unacceptable.

 

[bladeplayer]

How would you word such a condition of the rule?

Here in lies the problem i think . I agree its a harsh penalty , but its a correct penalty when spotted , rule wording has to cover so many situations , to b fair the current rule and wording is pretty good .

My gripe with things like this is golf is supose to be built on equity and fairness in equity. It is equitable every shot from that spot is caught on video but is evey shot checked ? Our golf is refereed by our fellow competitors ,and as mentioned in another thread in rules section some comps have assigned referees who can alert on a breach or potential breach . Not sure if its assigned or roaming at the masters, but the Player or other playets in his group didnt call it, if there is an assigned ref , he didnt call it , so where does it stop

 

[Deleted member 16999]

It is great using common sense, until someone gets away with something dubious, where some say a player gained no advantage, and others say the player would have gained an advantage.

At least now the rules are pretty much as close to black and white as you'd hope to be.

P.S I simply used the extreme examples to make it clear that no one would dispute television evidence in those cases. So, you have the thousands of potential incidents in between, many subjective, where some will say using TV is fine, others unacceptable.

We have to remember though the media are looking for new angles or insights etc and by “accident” find these rules breaks, having a camera low down near the bunker to catch the action inadvertenly filming an accidental infringment is, imo, not helping the sport.

 

[Imurg]

The application of the rule isn't really in question.
He did brush the sand and he got penalised for it.
Certainly my issue is that barely any other bunker shot played would have had the same camera angle, the same close up.
If you're going to call a penalty on someone because the only way to see it was via the camera then, in all fairness, you have to have those cameras on every single shot being played.
Who's to say the eventual winner didn't do exactly the same thing earlier in the tournament but, because camera wasn't there, no penalty was applied..?
It's like having VAR on some Premier league games but not at others..
The playing field has to be level even if infringements like this get missed.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

The application of the rule isn't really in question.
He did brush the sand and he got penalised for it.
Certainly my issue is that barely any other bunker shot played would have had the same camera angle, the same close up.
If you're going to call a penalty on someone because the only way to see it was via the camera then, in all fairness, you have to have those cameras on every single shot being played.
Who's to say the eventual winner didn't do exactly the same thing earlier in the tournament but, because camera wasn't there, no penalty was applied..?
It's like having VAR on some Premier league games but not at others..
The playing field has to be level even if infringements like this get missed.

Because every Bank might not a HD Camera in the right spot to catch bank robbers, we should let them all off

 

[Imurg]

Because every Bank might not a HD Camera in the right spot to catch bank robbers, we should let them all off

Great..we're comparing a 2 shot penalty in a stick and ball game to robbing banks.....
Thats one big left turn at the traffic lights....

 

[Steve Wilkes]

Great..we're comparing a 2 shot penalty in a stick and ball game to robbing banks.....
Thats one big left turn at the traffic lights....

I Know Imurg, A bit of a jump I agree, I was only light heartedness playing devils advocate, but some on here see Reed do something and want him put away longer than the great train robbers