The Words of Wisdom of Boris Johnson - Foreign Secretary

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And??

Does the above prove anything of importance? It’s a bit of anecdotal evidence and that’s all. It proves a very small point in a huge issue. A pointless waste of time and oxygen.

Yesterday’s comment about all Leavers being gullible was arrogant and condescending. If he’s your benchmark/hero then may God give you greater clarity of thought. Being articulate, as he is, doesn’t make his opinions of good quality.

If you really want to hear a good Remainer, listen to Ken Clarke.

No - it proves nothing - I simply present it as an example of what you have said that you don't like in JO'B - when in fact all he is doing is looking to debunk the myths and lies spread by such as Johnson. He does not blame those such as the caller for believing these myths and lies. And as far as 'gullible' comment. He only states that in the context of the toxic anti-EU set out by the Right-wing press and such as Johnson. With that environment established over decades it is very understandable that some will accept what is subsequently said - by such as Johnson - about how things were and how things could be. That is all he says. Gullible...easily persuaded to believe something; credulous.

Yes - KC is an excellent advocate of Remaining - but he is a politician...and a Remain politician at that.

O'Brien is in the media trying to expose such as Johnson when there are many others across the board in the media who simply go along with - usually quite uncritically - or promote the stuff that Johnson spouts.

 

[User62651]

Johnson appears to me to have had his wings clipped. The usual bravado, humour and general jolliness seems to have left him of late, quite sombre with Kuennsberg yesterday and in recent media snips and commons imput. Dreams of PM perhaps slipping away or a re-think on tactics underway maybe. Being a backer of hard brexit won't hold him in good stead with most of his own party if a leadership contest arises. Gove has clearly changed tack over the last few months to compromise, maybe Boris will too?

 

[Beezerk]

Johnson appears to me to have had his wings clipped. The usual bravado, humour and general jolliness seems to have left him of late, quite sombre with Kuennsberg yesterday and in recent media snips and commons imput. Dreams of PM perhaps slipping away or a re-think on tactics underway maybe. Being a backer of hard brexit won't hold him in good stead with most of his own party if a leadership contest arises. Gove has clearly changed tack over the last few months to compromise, maybe Boris will too?

Or he’s playing the sensible card for when he makes his move?

 

[ColchesterFC]

It's a fact that in the latest figures net immigration has not changed that much (and I don't expect them to change much in the future - not exactly what May has sold in respect of her <100,000 target and expected by many of the electorate) - however the numbers of Non-EU nationals coming to the UK increased as the number of EU nationals coming has fallen. That's just how it is. And we know that looking forward sub-continent countries will be expecting easier access to the UK for their nationals as part of any trade deal. But that's the future - the figures today already show a change in the EU/Non-EU balance on immigration.

I do not see it as a bad thing that there could be many more sub-continent nationals in the UK as we look into the future - no issue at all. I suspect that unfortunately my view may not be held by some - or many - Leave voters.

BTW - Do you have stats that suggest EU27 nationals only came here because the fancied it? The evidence that I am aware of indicates that most came here as there were jobs available, and that these jobs paid more than they'd get at home - also that most EU27 nationals in the UK worked and contributed to the tax take - contributing more to the state coffers than they took from it.

I'm not disputing current levels of immigration but you have no evidence that your "FACT" that we will be getting "much more immigration" from the sub continent after Brexit is actually true? Despite you stating that it is a "FACT".

Surely by now you must understand that countries don't get exactly what they want from negotiations, the UK certainly hasn't from negotiations from the EU. So the fact that sub continent countries might want easier access for their nationals doesn't necessarily mean that they will get it. They could want each of their citizens to be given a gold Rolls Royce and a pet tiger as part of a trade deal but it seems unlikely to happen. Although if Theresa May is still in power and in overall charge of negotiations I can't see why any country negotiating with us won't get exactly what they want, especially if we maintain our current negotiating tactic of bending over and dropping our trousers every time. The rumours are that the UK negotiating team even had to provide the lube so that it was more comfortable for the EU when they rogered us senseless.

I am sure that there are some Leave voters that wanted immigration stopped. I haven't met any so can't confirm this but I know that the vast majority of them want controlled immigration not no immigration or unlimited EU immigration. I have no problem with them thinking that as it is in the best interests of any country to only allow in those that are needed.

I don't have any stats to show that EU nationals came here "only" because they fancied it and that's not what I said. But I would suggest that anyone that didn't fancy coming to the UK wouldn't come here so those that did come here did fancy it - whether that was for work, to join other family members already here or for any other reason. I didn't make any comment on whether or not those from the EU27 coming here were working or paying tax or contributing to the economy. Once again you have made a lazy assumption about a post rather than reading and responding to what the post actually said.

So here's two direct questions for you......

1. Is it possible that currently anyone from any of the other EU27 countries can move to the UK if they fancy it? (The reasons why they "fancy it" aren't important to the question it's a simple yes or no answer).

2. Isn't our current immigration policy as a member of the EU borderline racist because it discriminates against people because of where they were born?

 

[ColchesterFC]

O'Brien is in the media trying to expose such as Johnson when there are many others across the board in the media who simply go along with - usually quite uncritically - or promote the stuff that Johnson spouts.

I've never listened to James O'Brien but does he also expose those on the Remain side of the argument that have peddled lies and half truths (or as you put it exaggerated) or is he as blinkered and one-sided as you on the Brexit debate?

 

[Hobbit]

1. Is it possible that currently anyone from any of the other EU27 countries can move to the UK if they fancy it? (The reasons why they "fancy it" aren't important to the question it's a simple yes or no answer).

2. Isn't our current immigration policy as a member of the EU borderline racist because it discriminates against people because of where they were born?

I don’t mind giving an answer Q1, as an immigrant to Spain where the rules are the same.

1. Anyone can move. However, how long they can stay and what benefits they can access are dependent on their age, are they employed or retired. After 183 days they have a choice of either obtaining the right to reside longer or return ‘home.’ When seeking the right to reside they must pass certain criteria. There is no carte Blanche right to just move over, even within the EU.

 

[Foxholer]

It's a fact that in the latest figures net immigration has not changed that much (and I don't expect them to change much in the future - not exactly what May has sold in respect of her <100,000 target and expected by many of the electorate) - however the numbers of Non-EU nationals coming to the UK increased as the number of EU nationals coming has fallen. That's just how it is. And we know that looking forward sub-continent countries will be expecting easier access to the UK for their nationals as part of any trade deal. But that's the future - the figures today already show a change in the EU/Non-EU balance on immigration.

I do not see it as a bad thing that there could be many more sub-continent nationals in the UK as we look into the future - no issue at all. I suspect that unfortunately my view may not be held by some - or many - Leave voters.

BTW - Do you have stats that suggest EU27 nationals only came here because the fancied it? The evidence that I am aware of indicates that most came here as there were jobs available, and that these jobs paid more than they'd get at home - also that most EU27 nationals in the UK worked and contributed to the tax take - contributing more to the state coffers than they took from it.

I expect, at least in the short term, a significant decrease in the number of EU imigrants after Brexit. The ability for the 'less-skilled' to earn significantly mor in UK than at home will have been eliminated! That won't affect the need for 'highly-skilled' applicants from wherever being accepted. It will, however, have quite an effect on those industries that have been accustomed to 'cheap' labour from EU economic migrants!

 

[drdel]

If you were listening just now you'd have heard a conversation JO'B had with an ardent Leaver - who when asked of a significant benefit of Leaving the caller stated the amount of money that would be saved by not having to pay translators for EU nationals getting treatment in the NHS. JO'B asked the caller on the numbers of translators working in the NHS for EU27 nationals to back up his 'savings' claim. The caller didn't know - but it was a lot - he claimed. JO'B then pulled out the languages for which translators are most commonly required in the NHS.

Arabic, Bengali, Gujarati, Lithuanian, Nepalese, Panjabi, Polish, Portuguese, Turkish and Urdu. (FACT)

The caller fell silent and the call ended.

JO'B admitted that he might have made the caller feel stupid, but was not apologetic - he doesn't just do it for callers - he'll do it for anyone - and was clear that when a Leave supporter makes a statement he will ask for the evidence and then when - as here none is forthcoming - he will simply state the facts.

Meanwhile which part of the world are we going to get (and are already seeing) much greater levels of immigration from after we leave and EU immigration levels fall as is demanded? Yes indeedy - the Sub-continent (FACT)

But this stuff on the cost of translators in the NHS and it being as a result of EU immigration - and how that cost will be significantly reduced once we leave - is just the sort of stuff peddled by the Right Wing press and Johnson - and that is simply not true. In fact the cost of translators could well go up.

I note that while the EU argues that translation (verbal and documents) should be part of a citizens rights -which the UK does its best to undertake - try getting a translator if you're in bother on other EU countries!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I've never listened to James O'Brien but does he also expose those on the Remain side of the argument that have peddled lies and half truths (or as you put it exaggerated) or is he as blinkered and one-sided as you on the Brexit debate?

He makes it clear that he has no time for the exaggerations in respect of forecasts of what might happen as made by Remain - these were wrong and very unhelpful - but he will make the point that an exaggeration of what might happen is not the same as a misrepresentation or lie about something that has happened or is known; that the two are not equivalent.

He will also point out that some of the possible worst predictions of the outcomes of the vote were greatly mitigated by the immediate actions of the devil incarnate aka Mark Carney - but of course these actions might not have worked. The fact that they worked to the extent they did was, at least, in part due to the expertise and knowledge of MC - however they have not prevented the fall in the £ and the slowdown in growth that have both happened.

His main target these days are those who continue to peddle lies; misinformation; unrealistic promises, and false hope. And Johnson is at the head of the queue - though the queue is not single file...

 

[Hobbit]

He makes it clear that he has no time for the exaggerations in respect of forecasts of what might happen as made by Remain - these were wrong and very unhelpful - but he will make the point that an exaggeration of what might happen is not the same as a misrepresentation or lie about something that has happened or is known; that the two are not equivalent.

He will also point out that some of the possible worst predictions of the outcomes of the vote were greatly mitigated by the immediate actions of the devil incarnate aka Mark Carney - but of course these actions might not have worked. The fact that they worked to the extent they did was, at least, in part due to the expertise and knowledge of MC - however they have not prevented the fall in the £ and the slowdown in growth that have both happened.

His main target these days are those who continue to peddle lies; misinformation; unrealistic promises, and false hope. And Johnson is at the head of the queue - though the queue is not single file...

A lie; something that can convey a false impression.

The statements made by some Remain campaigners were to convey a false impression of how bad Leave would be. They were/are liars.

You are totally blind to many truths, the above being one of them. Your blind adulation to false gods does you no favours in this debate, and does no favours to healing the divisions.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

A lie; something that can convey a false impression.

The statements made by some Remain campaigners were to convey a false impression of how bad Leave would be. They were/are liars.

You are totally blind to many truths, the above being one of them. Your blind adulation to false gods does you no favours in this debate, and does no favours to healing the divisions.

A false impression of a truth...

And I detect very little wish in the minds of many Leave voters for any form of healing or conciliation. Leave won remember - Remain voters just get have to over it. And if Leave voter doesn't get the deal he wants then it's No Deal - no matter what. Remain voters can just get stuffed.

 

[Hobbit]

A false impression of a truth...

Super!

Mine was also dictionary definition of exaggeration, not a made up definition. They lied. Play with the semantics if it makes you happy but at the end of the day the dictionary clearly states an exaggeration is a lie.

Do you ever admit you’re wrong? Clearly not.

 

[Blue in Munich]

A false impression of a truth...

And I detect very little wish in the minds of many Leave voters for any form of healing or conciliation. Leave won remember - Remain voters just get have to over it. And if Leave voter doesn't get the deal he wants then it's No Deal - no matter what. Remain voters can just get stuffed.

Probably because there was very little wish for harm or division in many Leave voters minds; they simply had a different political view which they preferred. The vast majority of the warped hatred I've seen has come from hardened Remainers like yourself, tarring all Leavers with the same brush. It's quite pathetic really.

 

[Hobbit]

A false impression of a truth...

And I detect very little wish in the minds of many Leave voters for any form of healing or conciliation. Leave won remember - Remain voters just get have to over it. And if Leave voter doesn't get the deal he wants then it's No Deal - no matter what. Remain voters can just get stuffed.

If you swap Remain for Leave it could be you saying those words. The conciliation and compromise you spoke of early in the debate has long since vanished. You have become so polarised in the debate you don't recognise how far O'Brien is from compromise and conciliation. His inflammatory description of Leavers yesterday was appalling. I don't doubt some were gullible but, equally, blanket statements and generalisations are lazy and poor. Many Leavers made their choice with their eyes wide open, and that choice based on a political choice of not wanting to be part of Europe.

And this is were O'Brien, and you, lose a huge chunk of credibility. He will be right in many respects about the outcome but his analysis of how Leavers made their choice is obnoxious.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Probably because there was very little wish for harm or division in many Leave voters minds; they simply had a different political view which they preferred. The vast majority of the warped hatred I've seen has come from hardened Remainers like yourself, tarring all Leavers with the same brush. It's quite pathetic really.

I have absolutely no hatred of any individual or group - just despair and detestation of the lies and deceits coming out of the mouths of such as Johnson. As I said. The likes of Johnson and Rees-Mogg are very difficult to love - but love them and pray for them I must (though I know that most reading that won't actually understand it)

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If you swap Remain for Leave it could be you saying those words. The conciliation and compromise you spoke of early in the debate has long since vanished. You have become so polarised in the debate you don't recognise how far O'Brien is from compromise and conciliation. His inflammatory description of Leavers yesterday was appalling. I don't doubt some were gullible but, equally, blanket statements and generalisations are lazy and poor. Many Leavers made their choice with their eyes wide open, and that choice based on a political choice of not wanting to be part of Europe.

And this is were O'Brien, and you, lose a huge chunk of credibility. He will be right in many respects about the outcome but his analysis of how Leavers made their choice is obnoxious.

...is very simple. He says they were lied to - that the lies were believed is not their fault - the toxic anti-EU environment set out by the right wing press and such as Johnson over the last three decades made these lies seem absolutely reasonable, plausible and truthful.

 

[Blue in Munich]

I have absolutely no hatred of any individual or group - just despair and detestation of the lies and deceits coming out of the mouths of such as Johnson. As I said. The likes of Johnson and Rees-Mogg are very difficult to love - but love them and pray for them I must (though I know that most reading that won't actually understand it)

And yet here your hatred still shows as you refuse to decry the lies told by Project Fear. Both sides lied, yet you only highlight one side; why, if not hatred for them?

 

[User62651]

And yet here your hatred still shows as you refuse to decry the lies told by Project Fear. Both sides lied, yet you only highlight one side; why, if not hatred for them?

I dont think Mr Cameron is in any remainer's good books to be fair, generally despised now.

 

[bobmac]

but love them and pray for them I must (though I know that most reading that won't actually understand it)

How patronised do we all feel now, us thick atheists.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And yet here your hatred still shows as you refuse to decry the lies told by Project Fear. Both sides lied, yet you only highlight one side; why, if not hatred for them?

Sorry - that I detest the lies coming out of some mouths does not imply any hatred whatsoever.

That Remain might well have exaggerated some of their predictions of what could happen post a Leave vote is now rather besides the point. Some proponents of leaving such as Johnson continue to lie - especially when spinning around the risks of No Deal. That really matters now that we are leaving - remember...?