The value of lessons

[Tashyboy]

Any pro can teach, but it’s how he relates to you ( or does not) and how you feel after the lesson that will tell you if it has been worth it or not.
since I got back into golf I have probably seen 5 coaches.
1, was look at me and how good I am.
2, was what can I sell you.
3, was just hit it.
4, was very good at finding my faults but not giving me a drill on how to fix it.
5, was very good at finding my faults and giving me drills at home to try and fix it. He is the one I can connect with and the one that gets to my level. He works 25 miles away but for me it’s worth it.
What I find astonishing is reading Bobmacs posts on players swings inc mine. Just by asking a few questions re ball flight etc he can recognise faults and help with remedies. That’s what I get with the coach I use.
Finally I have had lessons both on the range and indoors, oh and on the range with trackman or whatever it’s called.
I much prefer on the range and seeing ball flight etc.
my advice, find the coach you can relate to.

 

[patricks148]

Any pro can teach, but it’s how he relates to you ( or does not) and how you feel after the lesson that will tell you if it has been worth it or not.
since I got back into golf I have probably seen 5 coaches.
1, was look at me and how good I am.
2, was what can I sell you.
3, was just hit it.
4, was very good at finding my faults but not giving me a drill on how to fix it.
5, was very good at finding my faults and giving me drills at home to try and fix it. He is the one I can connect with and the one that gets to my level. He works 25 miles away but for me it’s worth it.
What I find astonishing is reading Bobmacs posts on players swings inc mine. Just by asking a few questions re ball flight etc he can recognise faults and help with remedies. That’s what I get with the coach I use.
Finally I have had lessons both on the range and indoors, oh and on the range with trackman or whatever it’s called.
I much prefer on the range and seeing ball flight etc.
my advice, find the coach you can relate to.

i had a lesson this week as i was struggling getting the ball up with my new 4 iron.. after a couple of swings he said with a big smile," i can, what the problem is... its a lack of cock"

i hope he meant wrist cock

 

[Tashyboy]

i had a lesson this week as i was struggling getting the ball up with my new 4 iron.. after a couple of swings he said with a big smile," i can, what the problem is... its a lack of cock"

i hope he meant wrist cock

???

 

[HomerJSimpson]

First and foremost a lesson has to be a two way process and a coach needs to listen to what a client wants, whether that's a specific fix or a big change, be able to diagnose the fault and give reasons why, remedies and drills in a way the client can understand and work with. I've had some that have been very technical, some that felt it was reinventing the wheel each time and some that I just didn't click with and take the information in and retain it. Once you get someone that works for you it makes the learning process so much easier

 

[hovis]

The majority of coaches out there are utter garbage. I hear over the bays what they're teaching and it just nonsense. Most golf pros "in my opinion" treat the problem not the cause.
I recon I went through at least 15 pros before I found one that actually made a difference to my game. And before anyone says it yes I stuck with them and tried to apply the changes before I binned them off.

When you find a pro that actually produces "long term" results then keep hold of him/her and follow them where ever they go

 

[Curls]

It does amaze me when the young lads off 4 go from working in Asda to putting signs up saying they are now available for lessons at 40 quid an hour ?

That’d be good value for a lesson off Andy Sullivan

 

[chrisd]

Our ex asst pro teaches at a local range and introduced a long term teaching deal at a much reduced price, so I did 2 lessons per month for a year at £60 per month for 2 x 1hour lessons. I finished in Febryary with an iron swing that was seeing more greens hit in regulation, and the pulls and pushes I was prone to, much less prevalent.

However, my driving was really bad and he never fixed it despite drills to try to. I was just getting my body through to impact too soon, not seeing the ball hit and often ending with a really bad duck hook where my hands and arms were playing catch up and my left arm was never straight. Anyway, I started to try to put into play the improved iron swing just as the first lockdown started so I never got to play with it as the (hopefully) finished article. When we came back from lockdown it took about 20 comps to start hitting as I wanted to and my scores were awful after the long lay off so my handicap went from 12 to 14 and I was quite depressed about my golf as I still couldn't get off too many tees. In the meanwhile I had 2 sessions with Paul Foston and he improved my short game and putting massively.

The longshot was that a few weeks ago one of my playing partners just said to keep my right arm straighter and to hit the driver with a 7 iron feeling ie stay behind and see the ball hit - I did manage it and the ball flew about 250 yards with a little draw and on the last game before this lockdown I shot 76 gross off 16 handicap!

If there's a moral to the story its, for me, listen to everyone but try what your gut feeling tells to, try stuff and never rule out asking the guys you play with every week what's changed. Go to the best teachers, with good reputations, you can afford.

 

[Backsticks]

My view is that the value of lessons is almost nil. As in, most lessons do nothing at all for the pupil, and a very few lessons do a little.

This is not to say people dont enjoy them, and might even leave with an impression that it has been beneficial. And I do think there is a benefit for some very beginners (though nothing they cannot also grasp from picking up any typical Begin Golf book) of the order of a once off lesson, and also for demonstrating the range of short game shots commonly used.

But the idea that a lesson or series of them can take the already playing golfer from one level to a better one has no grounds.

And argue on the following points :

- people automatically assume that someone offering lessons, and the activity of going for a lesson, by the very definition of the word, must as a result confer on them some learning and improvement. But this is not necessarily so. People fall for the teacher-pupil benefit they are used to from other spheres when it really isnt there in golf.

- linked to the above, we are used to teachers in other fields having studied the matter, gained a knoweldge of it, and so be capable of passing on that learning. As per a school teacher, a piano teacher, a professional qualification course, or basket weaving, or whatever. But golf pros arrive at being teachers from a position of having been simply better than 99% of other golfers, usually from a young age, and quite possibly even without ever had a lesson. While the 'study' is tacked on later as they gain their badge, they are essentially low single digit golfers or better before they ever embark on what is professional learning. So the cart came before the horse. The balance of probability is that they are simply talented and better golfers for reasons unknown to themselves, than that they have a deeper knowledge or understanding of the golf swing and as a result of that are better golfers, and so can transfer that knowledge.

- the true level of knowledge of what makes a good golf swing, from an objective scientific perspective, is virtually nothing. Almost all golf teaching and literature purporting to back up various teaching approaches are laughably unscientific, waffling, and were they peer reviewed by some all-knowing golfswing-understanding deity, would be thrown out as nonsense. There is no test and validation backed evidence to justify any of them as anything other than speculation at best. As a result, there are then no grounds to expect that anyone can teach something that no one knows the answer to in the first place.

- Most golf teaching, teaches mannerisms and points of style. Much of it going on aesthetic (a 'lovely' or 'textbook' swing being the goal), even thought there is clear and obvious evidence that word beating levels of golf can be achieved (cite any idiosyncratic famous pro swing of your choice here - who effectively are doing it all 'wrong', according to what the average pro will set out to teach) by not following what the pro will try to teach at all. And evolves with the decades according to who happens to be the worlds highest profile golfers. Showing my age here, but anyone else follow the club golfer's affectation for a Palmer 'twirl' at the top of the follow through during the 60s, a 'high' swing after that a la Nicklaus, or a 'bendy legs' swing then in the style of Watson or Ballestoros. And now its much more locked legs and tight torso turn. Yet, Trevino, Daly, Furyk, Johnson, etc.

- while people embark on game improvement programmes involving everything from new gear, club fitting (dont start me on that sham - would love to see a trading standards investigation into it), practice, fitness, and, yes series of lessons, and some improve, there is no evidence that the lessons themselves contributed anything. It is more likely to have been the practice - simply more hours invested - than the practicing of any change, or implementation of any improvement in fundamental swing technique imparted in a lesson that results in the improvement.

- I am unaware of any case of a golfer being taken from swing x to swing y by a pro and their level of ball striking and golf level being transformed a level. And should be delighted to read of such an example if anyone is aware of any.

 

[trevor]

Couldn’t agree with you more there Backsticks. I’ve done all of the above at various stages, lessons of various pros, fitting, new clubs, different balls etc and I don’t think any of it has made me better at golf. None of it ever affected my handicap anyway.

 

[Foxholer]

...
I was about 3/4 lessons in and struggling to put everything together into one swing then I get the pro come in say watch this, so I watch him swing and hit it easily (he’s a pro he’s not proving it’s easy by showing me how easy it is for him)

Then I have to stand there and watch him get annoyed that I struggle to do the roughly 10 things he wants me to change in my swing after 5 minutes and tell me it’s really not that difficult
...

Definitely time to change Pro! That one is not for you - or perhaps anyone!!

Never in a million years should you be (actively) changing 10 things in your swing. Two, or perhaps 3 active changes is all that virtually any pupil can handle. There may be (hopefully beneficial) consequential changes, but these shouldn't be actively taught/stressed!
If he's going to get you to watch his swing, then I'd suggest he also needs to 'demonstrate' or, better still, video yours as well and get you to adjust it to be 'more like his' - even perhaps placing you in the positions he wants you to be at key points - then confirming the improvement by a subsequent vid.

 

[Sweep]

I once had a lesson to try to fix a specific issue. By the time we actually got to have the lesson - because he didn’t teach in the rain - I had pretty much solved the issue myself. I went into it hitting the ball pretty well but he tried to change everything. The end result was I couldn’t get the ball in the air and found I couldn’t even go back to what I was doing before. My head was scrambled and I believed I was doing everything wrong.
It took me 6 weeks to get a ball in the air again. Effectively 20% of the season gone.
Finding a good pro for you is more than half the battle. A good pro to one person may not be good for another. For me it’s all about you understanding by feel what the pro is teaching you. You can’t see yourself so you have to know how the correct moves feels.
It’s important to find a pro who will teach the right basics and not just put sticking plasters on it to get you through a couple of weeks. Treat the root cause not the symptom. And do it but by bit and not overload the student.
It sounds like the OP has significant concerns with this pro so my advice would be to not waste time and try another one.

 

[Foxholer]

My view is that the value of lessons is almost nil. As in, most lessons do nothing at all for the pupil, and a very few lessons do a little.

This is not to say people dont enjoy them, and might even leave with an impression that it has been beneficial. And I do think there is a benefit for some very beginners (though nothing they cannot also grasp from picking up any typical Begin Golf book) of the order of a once off lesson, and also for demonstrating the range of short game shots commonly used.

But the idea that a lesson or series of them can take the already playing golfer from one level to a better one has no grounds.

And argue on the following points :

- people automatically assume that someone offering lessons, and the activity of going for a lesson, by the very definition of the word, must as a result confer on them some learning and improvement. But this is not necessarily so. People fall for the teacher-pupil benefit they are used to from other spheres when it really isnt there in golf.

- linked to the above, we are used to teachers in other fields having studied the matter, gained a knoweldge of it, and so be capable of passing on that learning. As per a school teacher, a piano teacher, a professional qualification course, or basket weaving, or whatever. But golf pros arrive at being teachers from a position of having been simply better than 99% of other golfers, usually from a young age, and quite possibly even without ever had a lesson. While the 'study' is tacked on later as they gain their badge, they are essentially low single digit golfers or better before they ever embark on what is professional learning. So the cart came before the horse. The balance of probability is that they are simply talented and better golfers for reasons unknown to themselves, than that they have a deeper knowledge or understanding of the golf swing and as a result of that are better golfers, and so can transfer that knowledge.

- the true level of knowledge of what makes a good golf swing, from an objective scientific perspective, is virtually nothing. Almost all golf teaching and literature purporting to back up various teaching approaches are laughably unscientific, waffling, and were they peer reviewed by some all-knowing golfswing-understanding deity, would be thrown out as nonsense. There is no test and validation backed evidence to justify any of them as anything other than speculation at best. As a result, there are then no grounds to expect that anyone can teach something that no one knows the answer to in the first place.

- Most golf teaching, teaches mannerisms and points of style. Much of it going on aesthetic (a 'lovely' or 'textbook' swing being the goal), even thought there is clear and obvious evidence that word beating levels of golf can be achieved (cite any idiosyncratic famous pro swing of your choice here - who effectively are doing it all 'wrong', according to what the average pro will set out to teach) by not following what the pro will try to teach at all. And evolves with the decades according to who happens to be the worlds highest profile golfers. Showing my age here, but anyone else follow the club golfer's affectation for a Palmer 'twirl' at the top of the follow through during the 60s, a 'high' swing after that a la Nicklaus, or a 'bendy legs' swing then in the style of Watson or Ballestoros. And now its much more locked legs and tight torso turn. Yet, Trevino, Daly, Furyk, Johnson, etc.

- while people embark on game improvement programmes involving everything from new gear, club fitting (dont start me on that sham - would love to see a trading standards investigation into it), practice, fitness, and, yes series of lessons, and some improve, there is no evidence that the lessons themselves contributed anything. It is more likely to have been the practice - simply more hours invested - than the practicing of any change, or implementation of any improvement in fundamental swing technique imparted in a lesson that results in the improvement.

- I am unaware of any case of a golfer being taken from swing x to swing y by a pro and their level of ball striking and golf level being transformed a level. And should be delighted to read of such an example if anyone is aware of any.

While I see merit in some of those arguments, my own experience (and observation of a mate) is that teaching DOES contribute to a playter's ability. Certainly practice helps, but changing 'style' to improve consistency of strike certainly works - imo! I went from a 14-capper to a 10 with lessons followed by a few holes to 'imbed' the changes being the major 'contribution'. It was only at that point that I was able - and did - practice significantly, getting to 7 by improving short game area.
Likewise, my big-hitting, if occasionally very wayward (he has played his 2nd shot on one hole from 5 different fairways!!), mate had lessons with a Master Pro at his club who modified his (cricket based) technique and tempered his speed to improve consistency - and handicap from 12 to 6/7. again with only 'practice' sufficient to 'groove' the changes!

 

[clubchamp98]

Practice is the key.
You should not really have a lesson unless you have time to practice what he tells you to do.
A lesson is only as good as the pupil it’s not always the pro who’s at fault.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Practice is the key.
You should not really have a lesson unless you have time to practice what he tells you to do.
A lesson is only as good as the pupil it’s not always the pro who’s at fault.

This. I have said more than once that I found I make more progress having one, maybe two range sessions between the lesson and getting on the course. It gives me time to work on the drills, rehearse it, hit, rehearse hit, repeat until the change feels more natural and I am can see the effect on the shot I want. I find this more beneficial so I can arrive on the course knowing it is in there and that I don't have to stand there with a load of swing thoughts. Trust it and swing. Granted first time out it may not go according to plan but as long as the swing feels as if it's working as I want it to and I can see why the bad shots are there then go back and work on it some more.

 

[hovis]

This. I have said more than once that I found I make more progress having one, maybe two range sessions between the lesson and getting on the course. It gives me time to work on the drills, rehearse it, hit, rehearse hit, repeat until the change feels more natural and I am can see the effect on the shot I want. I find this more beneficial so I can arrive on the course knowing it is in there and that I don't have to stand there with a load of swing thoughts. Trust it and swing. Granted first time out it may not go according to plan but as long as the swing feels as if it's working as I want it to and I can see why the bad shots are there then go back and work on it some more.

Which is all well and good if what you're being told to do is correct. I got told to roll my hands hard through impact once. That was never going to work even if I gave it thousands of balls

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Which is all well and good if what you're being told to do is correct. I got told to roll my hands hard through impact once. That was never going to work even if I gave it thousands of balls

I use Andrew Piper http://www.lavenderparkgolf.co.uk/our-professionals/ and have done for 4-5 years. Lots of experience, I have faith in the work he does with the PGA and he is someone that teaches in a very simple but effective manner, not trying to make too many changes in one go but refine what a player brings to the lesson. The great thing is, he'll explain why he is making a change, what I am doing wrongs and what the change is designed to do. The bays are fitted with Toptracer but we'll sometimes go to the designated teaching bay and use Trackman to get more accurate data or to watch videos of the swing on the screen. I trust him, and perhaps the most important thing is I feel he has been positive for my game. The handicap has dropped 2 shots in 2020 (with reduced playing) but my swing feels more reliable and repeatable more often

 

[Deleted member 3432]

I use Andrew Piper http://www.lavenderparkgolf.co.uk/our-professionals/ and have done for 4-5 years. Lots of experience, I have faith in the work he does with the PGA and he is someone that teaches in a very simple but effective manner, not trying to make too many changes in one go but refine what a player brings to the lesson. The great thing is, he'll explain why he is making a change, what I am doing wrongs and what the change is designed to do. The bays are fitted with Toptracer but we'll sometimes go to the designated teaching bay and use Trackman to get more accurate data or to watch videos of the swing on the screen. I trust him, and perhaps the most important thing is I feel he has been positive for my game. The handicap has dropped 2 shots in 2020 (with reduced playing) but my swing feels more reliable and repeatable more often

Still got the overswing out of interest?

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Still got the overswing out of interest?

To be honest I've not seen the swing on video too often in 2020. Looked back at my tour speed video which was the last one I did and not as bad as it has been historically although a few other swing issues in there I have worked on since filming