The Union Jack

Hacker Khan said:
A lot of that such as community engagement, respect for the law is done through British values. And history is taught a lot in schools. Telling people to holiday in the UK is a bit silly though as schools are not in the game of telling people how to spend their leisure time and also you could argue in a globally linked economy the more exposure kids today get of overseas cultures the better it will hold them in stead later on in life. As for telling them to use social media to promote Britain then again not really sure schools should be in the game of telling kids to be unpaid interns for Visit Britain in their spare time.

And are you planning to tell kids from all the different cultures that we have today to support British sports men/women or the sportspeople from where their families originated? Will you make it mandatory that all schools in Nottingham to have to teach their kids to support Forest or County, all kids in Surrey to support Man U? Where will it end?
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Why does it matter were the parents of the sports people come from, if that person is wearing a GB vest then they qualify for GB and I hope they are proud of that, if it's merely a flag of convenience then they should be stopped.

I take your previous point about how patritism is perceived, but, again for me it's about reclaiming the word. Gay was used to describe a happy joyful person, use it now in the same context and you'd be risking insulting someone.

Why can't I believe in all the values you listed and still be patriotic?
 
IanM said:
Booing other national anthems has pretty much died out now (amongst England football fans) - but very much in evidence when Scotland or Wales hear "God save the Queen." But I am advised that isn't offensive, it's just banter! :D
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In Scotland, "God Save The Queen" is seen by some to be an anti Scottish anthem written in the 18th century, in particular, the fifth verse. I do however doubt many would be able to quote it if asked.
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/u/uks+national+anthem/god+save+the+queen_20983467.html
 
CliveW, the reality is no one ever gets past verse 1. The rest of the anthem is not ideal but then Flower of Scotland also is about a battle, against the English, conveniently forgotten when God Save the Queen is complained about, so no moral high ground there. If the British anthem was written again it would hopefully be very different. I'd change it.
 
bobmac said:
So your local community/village/town can go to hell...followed closely by Brittish manufacturers and the tourist industry?
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I think that is more down to government policy than what they teach in schools to be honest.

As for community engagement then again that is part of British values, schools through the classroom or at governance level do a lot of work engaging in the local community and they encourage kids to get involved.
 
pauldj42 said:
Why does it matter were the parents of the sports people come from, if that person is wearing a GB vest then they qualify for GB and I hope they are proud of that, if it's merely a flag of convenience then they should be stopped.

I take your previous point about how patritism is perceived, but, again for me it's about reclaiming the word. Gay was used to describe a happy joyful person, use it now in the same context and you'd be risking insulting someone.

Why can't I believe in all the values you listed and still be patriotic?
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Think you misunderstood, not I did not explain very well. It is not the parents of the sportspeople I was referring to, it was the parents of the kids we are supposed to be teaching to respect their sports people. So are we supposed to be teaching all kids to support British sports teams/people. Or are we supposed to be teaching them to support the country they/ their parents/parent parent were born in? Or I suppose alternatively are we supposed to just forget it as it was a stupid suggestion to start with which I vote for.

And of course you can believe in the British values and be patriotic (depending on your definition I suppose), they are not mutually exclusive.
 
Hacker Khan said:
Think you misunderstood, not I did not explain very well. It is not the parents of the sportspeople I was referring to, it was the parents of the kids we are supposed to be teaching to respect their sports people. So are we supposed to be teaching all kids to support British sports teams/people. Or are we supposed to be teaching them to support the country they/ their parents/parent parent were born in? Or I suppose alternatively are we supposed to just forget it as it was a stupid suggestion to start with which I vote for.

And of course you can believe in the British values and be patriotic (depending on your definition I suppose), they are not mutually exclusive.
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Maybe I'm too simplistic, I just can't see why people can't embrace the here and now and the future while not forgetting their roots, kids can be taught by their parents their culture and traditions of were they came from, kids can be taught the same about Britain at school and if both are done correctly we hopefully produce a more tolerant and better British citizen for the future.
 
pauldj42 said:
Maybe I'm too simplistic, I just can't see why people can't embrace the here and now and the future while not forgetting their roots, kids can be taught by their parents their culture and traditions of were they came from, kids can be taught the same about Britain at school and if both are done correctly we hopefully produce a more tolerant and better British citizen for the future.
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Which is exactly the purpose of the British values initiative in schools. It was brought about as a reaction to the increase in radicalisation, fundamentalism and extremism (both far right, Islamic and any other flavours you can think of). Despite what some of the tabloids like to say on the headlines, there is a lot of very good work going on in schools to make us a more tolerant and inclusive society.

To be honest it's not the schools or kids that are the problem, I'd argue in most cases the so called grown ups need to take a long hard look at themselves. You can teach the kids all you can about this kind of thing but as soon as they are exposed to print media or web news sites or social media echo chambers or you tube videos then a lot of the hard work can get undone.
 
bobmac said:
So your local community/village/town can go to hell...followed closely by Brittish manufacturers and the tourist industry?
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Why would they ? If British manufacturers produced a product that is worth buying then people will buy it. But it's ridiculous to suggest that we should teach kids to buy British to be patriotic.
 
IanM said:
That's just the point Phil... we shouldn't, but it looks to me that we have actively been teaching the exact opposite since I left school....
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No we have not, there is nowhere in the national curriculum that tells anyone that you have to buy your cars from Germany or your phones from South Korea. Or your putters from America as you do. People buy stuff because they see the value in it, that value may be based on price, quality, functionality, coolness, whatever. But to expect a family, especially those struggling to make ends meet to ignore that and spend more on a product because it is British is both ridiculous and indeed patronising to them. Successive governments have decided the shape of our economy and how we play in the global economy, and low cost manufacturing for a lot of consumer goods is not one of our strengths.

If you want to get young people today to go more local/British then I'd suggest the environmental element is a better tactic. Telling them that buying some UK/locally sourced meat from the local butchers as it has far fewer air miles would probably resonate more with them than telling them to buy it as her maj would be proud of them.
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Why would they ? If British manufacturers produced a product that is worth buying then people will buy it. But it's ridiculous to suggest that we should teach kids to buy British to be patriotic.
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I've been in manufacturing all my working life, we can produce as good if not better than anyone in the world, but price is king. When you're up against countries like China who not only subsidise their manufacturing their labour is a lot cheaper too, it's easy to see why our manufacturing is struggling.

Go to France, see what cars they drive, what wine they drink, what cheese they eat... I would call the French very patriotic.
 
Hacker Khan said:
No we have not, there is nowhere in the national curriculum that tells anyone that you have to buy your cars from Germany or your phones from South Korea. Or your putters from America as you do. People buy stuff because they see the value in it, that value may be based on price, quality, functionality, coolness, whatever. But to expect a family, especially those struggling to make ends meet to
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...not what I meant. I was referring to the generation in the workforce who for reasons I don't understand seem to think the flag of this country is a racist symbol, GB invented and perpetuated the slave trade, are the only country on the planet without its own identity or culture... I had one plonker say to me "they were ashamed to be white!"
 
Twire said:
I've been in manufacturing all my working life, we can produce as good if not better than anyone in the world, but price is king. When you're up against countries like China who not only subsidise their manufacturing their labour is a lot cheaper too, it's easy to see why our manufacturing is struggling.

Go to France, see what cars they drive, what wine they drink, what cheese they eat... I would call the French very patriotic.
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You could argue food and drink is not a great comparison as we drink plenty of British beer and eat plenty of fish and chips, cheddar cheese and yorkshire puddings over here. Even Chicken Tiika is a mostly British invention I think, at least the way we eat them. And I am pretty sure if historically British wines were of the same quality as french ones then we'd drink gallons of that as well. As for British cars then not really sure what options we have for cars made by British companies and manufactured in Britain?
 
IanM said:
...not what I meant. I was referring to the generation in the workforce who for reasons I don't understand seem to think the flag of this country is a racist symbol, GB invented and perpetuated the slave trade, are the only country on the planet without its own identity or culture... I had one plonker say to me "they were ashamed to be white!"
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I am not sure how many people really think the flag is a racist symbol? It could be that young people today are kind of less hung up on national identity as they have grown up in a more multicultural society and global economy. That is not to say they hate their country but may be identify less with being 'English', flying a union jack outside their house etc etc. As for our colonialist past then there is an argument that we have not covered ourselves with glory at times and some may see the flag as a symbol for that. Personally I think it is a long time in the past and people should look forwards, but that may still rankle with some who are stuck in the past.
 
Hacker Khan said:
You could argue food and drink is not a great comparison as we drink plenty of British beer and eat plenty of fish and chips, cheddar cheese and yorkshire puddings over here. Even Chicken Tiika is a mostly British invention I think, at least the way we eat them. And I am pretty sure if historically British wines were of the same quality as french ones then we'd drink gallons of that as well. As for British cars then not really sure what options we have for cars made by British companies and manufactured in Britain?
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I would argue it's a very good comparison. The point I was trying to make, is the French look after their own. If we had done the same many years ago we might still have a cor industry and a great manufacturing base.
 
Liverpoolphil said:
What exactly do you teach when you teach someone to be patriotic?
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This in a nutshell from what paul says.
How far are British values from patrotism, to me it's pride and what we hold dear (values) as a nation.



Our nation is built on the understanding of a changing world of sexual, religious, race and all things diverse. The acceptance of other cultures! Manners, family values, democracy whoever you vote for.

That is being Patriotic to British values, it is what our nation has fought for through wars and the ballot box. Argue amongst yourselves re the small print but me flying the Union Jack stands for all things British.




 
Tashyboy said:
This in a nutshell from what paul says.
How far are British values from patrotism, to me it's pride and what we hold dear (values) as a nation.



Our nation is built on the understanding of a changing world of sexual, religious, race and all things diverse. The acceptance of other cultures! Manners, family values, democracy whoever you vote for.

That is being Patriotic to British values, it is what our nation has fought for through wars and the ballot box. Argue amongst yourselves re the small print but me flying the Union Jack stands for all things British.
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That's all values though - you can still display all those traits but not be patriotic to GB/ England etc
 
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