The pro doesn't always know best

[Maninblack4612]

I made a recent post about a small change I made in my setup which has resulted in much better ball striking. What I noticed was that, when setting up to the ball, I'd draw back the right foot, closing my stance. I've probably done this for 40 years & at no time has any of the many pros I've had lessons with ever mentioned this. One recently even suggested I point the shoulders even further right at address!

The change has been truly spectacular. I'm hitting it straighter than ever with none of the fat wedges or smothers with the long irons that have always blighted my game.

This reinforces something I have always believed, that nobody understands your game like you do. If you're familiar with the theory of the game there's a lot you can work out for yourself - I just wish it hadn't taken so long. Really looking forward to next season.

 

[hovis]

a golf pro cant see what your feeling. most pros just see something out of place and jump straight on it irrelevant of weather or not it works.

i must have told 7 different golf pros that I'm not releasing the club right and it feels like something is interrupting the swing just before impact. they all told me it was in my head and not to worry about it.

when in the usa this year i had a lesson using the "gears golf 3d analysis software" first thing the pro said was my left shoulder isn't working properly and is messing up my kinematic sequence and not allowing me to release the club.
i was very impressed as i hadn't told him about what i was feeling.
this year my handicap has plummeted with this new found knowledge.

i should have insisted when seeing my previous pros but I think its just strange to have a lesson and say "i dont agree with you and this is what i want to work on today"

what i also don't like about alot of pros is when they tell you to do something that feels wrong and you know its wrong. rather than try something else they just say "you'll get used to it" i never do!!!

 

[duncan mackie]

And 'out of place' can mean relative to a perceived norm etc

 

[Face breaker]

You're a man after my own heart, I stand quite narrow with my feet approximately 5-6" apart at address as 'due to a lack of flexibility' I can't follow through and complete the swing process otherwise...

The junior pro at our club was puzzled as to why I stood so narrow until I explained to him that I'm 43 and have had quite a hard working life 'amongst other things' whereas he's only 19 and I find it easier to complete my swing this way, he saw my point...

I too have found that bringing my right foot back a few inches behind my left foot at address also helps to clear the swing path, everybody is different, no two swings are the same, what works for you etc etc... :thup:

 

[NWJocko]

i should have insisted when seeing my previous pros but I think its just strange to have a lesson and say "i dont agree with you and this is what i want to work on today"

This is gold IMO...... There was a thread about this a while back and Huds challenged his pro as he just wasn't improving despite regular lessons and I said then that was the best advice I'd ever seen on here....

How many players (on here and at your club) get lessons and see no improvement but don't actually say to the pro that whatever they are trying to get them to do isn't working for whatever reason? I accept some won't bother practising (thats me and why I don't get lessons).

Homer (not having a dig) is an obvious example. Seen hundreds of pros and spent thousands of hours on the practice range and is getting worse (handicap wise!!!!) WTF is that all about!?

 

[hovis]

This is gold IMO...... There was a thread about this a while back and Huds challenged his pro as he just wasn't improving despite regular lessons and I said then that was the best advice I'd ever seen on here....

How many players (on here and at your club) get lessons and see no improvement but don't actually say to the pro that whatever they are trying to get them to do isn't working for whatever reason? I accept some won't bother practising (thats me and why I don't get lessons).

Homer (not having a dig) is an obvious example. Seen hundreds of pros and spent thousands of hours on the practice range and is getting worse (handicap wise!!!!) WTF is that all about!?

i agree. in golf and only in go do we accept a "teacher" saying to us "you need to pay me £50 and you wont get any better today buy you have to keep coming back paying me £50 and not getting better. after 5 lessons if you're not better i might consider trying something else that isn't going to work"

Robert rock says when he teaches his students, if they dont see it working within 10 shots then he tries another angle "

its crazy that we accept that something feels wrong but it needs 'bedding in' and it will then become second nature. there hasn't been one single change that felt wrong to start with but worked out to be good. for me its ok for it to feel different but i know when wrong is wrong. i dont needs to go to the range and hit 5000 balls to confirm it is still wrong

 

[Backsticks]

I wouldnt think the Pro ever knows best. They have a certain common template of what they put out as the 'correct' or good swing, but have no more credibility for it being correct other than that they all stick to the same story.
In reality they have little or no understanding of what makes a good swing - they are pros because they happened, by chance, to have grown up swinging it better than the rest of us. Thinking they know something about teaching a golf swing because of that, is a big mistake.

 

[PJ87]

This is gold IMO...... There was a thread about this a while back and Huds challenged his pro as he just wasn't improving despite regular lessons and I said then that was the best advice I'd ever seen on here....

How many players (on here and at your club) get lessons and see no improvement but don't actually say to the pro that whatever they are trying to get them to do isn't working for whatever reason? I accept some won't bother practising (thats me and why I don't get lessons).

Homer (not having a dig) is an obvious example. Seen hundreds of pros and spent thousands of hours on the practice range and is getting worse (handicap wise!!!!) WTF is that all about!?

I've seen 3 pros in my life
First 2 I just went with what was said

New guy at first I let it go and recently I been saying I get why you want this but I'm struggling and he comes up with a different way to approach it

Seen my first improvement in 5 years of playing (don't count when I was younger as I gave up when I broke my arm at 16)

 

[bobmac]

I wouldnt think the Pro ever knows best. They have a certain common template of what they put out as the 'correct' or good swing, but have no more credibility for it being correct other than that they all stick to the same story.
In reality they have little or no understanding of what makes a good swing - they are pros because they happened, by chance, to have grown up swinging it better than the rest of us. Thinking they know something about teaching a golf swing because of that, is a big mistake.

We are all human and therefor all different.

 

[Jacko_G]

This seems like a "pro bashing" thread all of a sudden.

Find a pro that you are comfortable with and trust them. I've very recently started lessons again and before committing I did a load of research. Asked questions, researched the internet, spoke to people then I approached and spoke to the recommended pro about what I was wanting to achieve and what I thought was wrong with my swing/golf. I then booked one lesson to see how it went before making any further commitment. Like all jobs you get people who are better than others, or can explain things better or spot things that others can miss.

The first lesson was a bit of an eye opener however the pro focused on all the positive things and we worked on one thing which saw instant improvement.

Part of the pro/pupil relationship is about being comfortable, you have to ask questions and not just blindly trust someone, the trust has to be earned and if you don't feel comfortable questioning why you are doing something or why the Pro is telling you to do something then I would suggest you need to look elsewhere for lessons. Similarly if you are not sure what the pro means when talking about the swing you need to ask.

I totally disagree that pro never knows best like someone else said.

 

[Blue in Munich]

I wouldnt think the Pro ever knows best. They have a certain common template of what they put out as the 'correct' or good swing, but have no more credibility for it being correct other than that they all stick to the same story.
In reality they have little or no understanding of what makes a good swing - they are pros because they happened, by chance, to have grown up swinging it better than the rest of us. Thinking they know something about teaching a golf swing because of that, is a big mistake.

That has to be the biggest load of cobblers I've ever seen posted on this forum, and seeing some of the crap that's on the Article 50 and Premier League threads that's one hell of an achievement! Congratulations. :clap: :thup:

 

[chrisd]

I would suggest that most people who have lessons and don't improve are not taking the things learned during the lesson to the course. I've heard many times people saying that their swing was worse after the lesson and so they gave up the changes, but sometimes you have to go backwards before you go forward in golf, it's hard to ingrain changes.

 

[Hobbit]

No one is perfect, including a pro but I'd suggest they get it right far more often than they get it wrong. And they get it right far more often than your mate out on the course or on the practice ground. And of the occasions they get it 'wrong,' how many times has the pupil not spent time on the practice ground grooving in the changes?

I've played for over 40 years too, most of it in low single figures, and know my swing pretty well. Last your during a run of poor scoring I asked a pro for help. 5 minutes into the lesson he'd spotted the fault and put it right. To all intents and purposes my swing had felt the same as it always had but the result obviously suggested it wasn't.

You might know your swing but I'd question whether or not you can identify subtle swing faults.

 

[HughJars]

I'm loving all the "scratch golfers" commenting here on how little the pros know, this being the pick of the bunch.

I wouldnt think the Pro ever knows best. They have a certain common template of what they put out as the 'correct' or good swing, but have no more credibility for it being correct other than that they all stick to the same story.
In reality they have little or no understanding of what makes a good swing - they are pros because they happened, by chance, to have grown up swinging it better than the rest of us. Thinking they know something about teaching a golf swing because of that, is a big mistake.

:rofl:


Anyway, yes a change is going to feel awkward and you'll need to practice to get rid of your ingrained faults.

And no if it feels wrong hovis that's just because you've been doing it wrong a long time. I had my first lessons ever after 30 years about four years ago, could never break the 5 barrier, whenever I made Cat 1 I would bounce right back to 6, went to a pro with a specific request that I didn't want wholesale changes as I was too old, and just wanted to get more upright and not be as flat especially with my irons.

Of course what happened due to this was a raft of changes, the first of which was an early, and what felt incredibly wrong wrist hinge, but on reviewing the video you could see me now getting on plane and not swinging flat around my back. That amongst other changes of course took a lot of "bedding in". there is no quick fix, especially to a lifetime of self taught golfer.

What resulted? I went on a fabulous run of form that season, broke and held cat 1 and touched 3 and should have taken down the club championship if the bottle hadn't gone in the final round. There was only one reason for that, and it was going to a teaching pro who knew his stuff, and most importantly for me, was video playback so I could actually see what I was doing and what I should be doing. How your swing feels almost never relates to how it actually looks.

There will undoubtedly be good and bad teachers as there are in any profession, but the premise of this thread is that a middling golfer knows best, and that pros are a waste of money is laughable.

 

[Foxholer]

I wouldnt think the Pro ever knows best. They have a certain common template of what they put out as the 'correct' or good swing, but have no more credibility for it being correct other than that they all stick to the same story.
In reality they have little or no understanding of what makes a good swing - they are pros because they happened, by chance, to have grown up swinging it better than the rest of us. Thinking they know something about teaching a golf swing because of that, is a big mistake.

We are all human and therefor all different.

How very restrained of you Bob!

I wouldnt think the Pro ever knows best. They have a certain common template of what they put out as the 'correct' or good swing, but have no more credibility for it being correct other than that they all stick to the same story.
In reality they have little or no understanding of what makes a good swing - they are pros because they happened, by chance, to have grown up swinging it better than the rest of us. Thinking they know something about teaching a golf swing because of that, is a big mistake.

That has to be the biggest load of cobblers I've ever seen posted on this forum, and seeing some of the crap that's on the Article 50 and Premier League threads that's one hell of an achievement! Congratulations. :clap: :thup:

Far more like my thoughts! :clap: :thup:

 

[hovis]

probably better if I give an example about something feeling wrong just needing bedding in...

i used to stand up un my backswing. only about 2 inches but i couldn't get rid of it. 2 different pros instantly saw this and said keep your hight in the backswing. after about 10 shots i said "something is not right, I'm trying my hardest not to lift but i cant stop it".
the predictable answer i got was it was only 10 shots and of course it not going to work straight away. so another 3 lessons and litteraly 1000's of range balls and the problem still remained. i insisted that there is something bigger in my swing causing this issue. again this fell on deaf ears and both pros told me to suck it up and be patient. so off i went for more lessons and about another 10,000 balls

eventually i got rid of the pros and decided to use the 3d analysis software. instantly i saw that the reason why i was standing up. in the backswing i was thrusting my hips towards the ball. no matter how hard i tried to stay in posture i was never going to over power or restrict my lower body from pushing me up and out of posture.


both the pros failed to spot this in 4 months of lessons. i would also like to add that both of these pros are well known and respected youtube bloggers. so i basically wasted £100's getting poor information from so called professionals. if thay had pinned their ears back and actually listened to me at the start i would have saved a fortune.


these days i only have lessons with the 3d motion software as it tells you exactly what is moving and what is wrong. for me, the clarity in these sessions is worlds apart from normal lessons.

 

[shortgame]

I wouldnt think the Pro ever knows best

Quite a statement!

Those idiots on tour sure are wasting their time and money with all their swing coaches

Why don't they just work it all out themselves?

Surely they as top players must know best

 

[shortgame]

In reality, there's good teachers and those not so good

There's those who can adapt to the needs of the individuals and those who don't (won't or can't)

Likewise, there's good pupils and those who not so good

There's those who can learn and adapt and those who don't (won't or can't) - lots of factors in play (talent, wilingness, physical limitations etc)

 

[chrisd]

In reality, there's good teachers and those not so good

There's those who can adapt to the needs of the individuals and those who don't (won't or can't)

Likewise, there's good pupils and those who not so good

There's those who can learn and adapt and those who don't (won't or can't) - lots of factors in play (talent, wilingness, physical limitations etc)

A pretty accurate summation in my opinion

about 3 years ago I used a (highly regarded) local pro who insisted that I change my swing to one where, from the top, I spin my hips as fast as possible to increase distance and to pull the shaft down more on plane and hit the ball longer and straighter. I tried, but told him I couldn't do it as I was (then) close to 62 years old, had 2 replaced hips and a reconstructed left knee and found co-ordinating the changes almost impossible and, in trying the changes, had lost my really good ball striking.

He insisted that I could easily do it and that I should be getting my handicap down to low single figures - I gave him up because I thought it was all going end in A& E.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

My uncle was a top coach in his time.
I recall one lesson he gave to a future Ryder Cup player who had travelled over 100 miles.
The lesson lasted 5 minutes as the future star was told that everything he was working on was in order and to keep on doing the same.

He was approached on many occasions to write a coaching book but declined as, in his words, the book would only have 2/3 pages.


I see modern coaches standing on the range with a player at a big event and the player is looking up for a comment after every shot. It must do their heads in.

Last lesson I had was at the age of 50.
The pro spotted my minor alignment problem after 3 shots.
It was an old fault that had crept back into my swing without me knowing.
That was all I needed to know so I paid him and thanked him.