The honour

[Fyldewhite]

The question of how the honour changes from hole to hole was raised on another thread.

One view is that the honour only changes if a hole is won outright. ie If players tee off one hole in the order A, B, C, then B and C both get a par and A gets a bogey, the order remains A, B, C because neither B nor C take the honour outright.

The Rule is worded like this.....
Rule 10-2
a. When Starting Play of Hole
.......The competitor with the lowest score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground. The competitor with the second lowest score plays next and so on. If two or more competitors have the same score at a hole, they play from the next teeing ground in the same order as at the previous teeing ground.

This is ambiguous. The word they can be taken to mean the whole group or just the players who had the same score on the hole.

Certainly around the North West it is interprested as the latter ......so, if B and C both get a par and A gets a bogey the order is B, C, A.

I've a feeling that this is regional so what do you think is the norm for your area of the country? Also, does anyone have a definitive answer to which is correct?

 

[funkyfred]

I have only been a member of a club for a couple of years but we would do the same as you B C A.
Where i get confused is, what if A had a stroke on his two opponets, so he actually gets a net par?

Many of the comps that I have played seem to let the guy go first who has the honour and the rest go whoever is ready first.

 

[USER1999]

I can never get too worked up about 'honour' unless it's match play.

However, we would do it on gross score, and if you had the worst gross, you go last regardless of if the other two tied.

 

[MizunoGreyhound]

We do the same; B,C then A.

Gross score taken in all eventualities for stroke play. Matchplay is different as winning the hole enters the scenario. Don`t know if we are doing it right, but chairman of comps never says anything when we pplay with him

 

[Robobum]

The question of how the honour changes from hole to hole was raised on another thread.

One view is that the honour only changes if a hole is won outright. ie If players tee off one hole in the order A, B, C, then B and C both get a par and A gets a bogey, the order remains A, B, C because neither B nor C take the honour outright.

The Rule is worded like this.....
Rule 10-2
a. When Starting Play of Hole
.......The competitor with the lowest score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground. The competitor with the second lowest score plays next and so on. If two or more competitors have the same score at a hole, they play from the next teeing ground in the same order as at the previous teeing ground.

This is ambiguous. The word they can be taken to mean the whole group or just the players who had the same score on the hole.

Certainly around the North West it is interprested as the latter ......so, if B and C both get a par and A gets a bogey the order is B, C, A.

I've a feeling that this is regional so what do you think is the norm for your area of the country? Also, does anyone have a definitive answer to which is correct?

The order is set on the first tee (as per the starting sheet if there is one)

In the above example, then B,C,A and so on. I've never played anywhere where this wasn't the case so I'm not sure it is regional.

Any change to this is either by those that don't know how it works or as a mutual agreement to speed play at the time.

 

[19th]

Following the tee off at the first and this in itself can create a wee headache - we go off the first dictated by handicap, lowest first - if A then has the highest gross score he goes last and B tees off first then C then A.

The OP method of retaining the player with the worst score teeing off first in the event of the other two players sharing the same score, was superceded many, many years ago.

 

[jammydodger]

Exactly as Robobum states in agreement with the OP. Lowest gross followed by next lowest and so on.

It seems to me after looking at the rule in the OP that some people need to learn to read and not be so picky. "they" is used after a comma and clearly refers to the subjects of the sentence ie the 2 people who have the same score. NOT the whole group or it would have said so....jeez....

 

[Whereditgo]

Same for us and never even considered anything else would be right, only time it changes is if we are trying to get a 'wriggle on' in a bounce game, then it's whoever is ready first goes.

 

[viscount17]

If two or more competitors have the same score at a hole, they play from the next teeing ground in the same order as at the previous teeing ground.

It is not at all ambiguous*. They in this sentence can only refer to the two or more competitors who have the same score. It cannot refer to the group as a whole, ie those players who do not have the same score, as they are not the subject of this sentence.

Thus in the example the teeing order subsequent to that hole is BCA - it cannot be other if you are strictly observing honours.

* This is a shock to me as The Rules are renowned for their ambiguity.

 

[Fyldewhite]

If two or more competitors have the same score at a hole, they play from the next teeing ground in the same order as at the previous teeing ground.

It is not at all ambiguous*. They in this sentence can only refer to the two or more competitors who have the same score. It cannot refer to the group as a whole, ie those players who do not have the same score, as they are not the subject of this sentence.

Thus in the example the teeing order subsequent to that hole is BCA - it cannot be other if you are strictly observing honours.

* This is a shock to me as The Rules are renowned for their ambiguity.

Just to be clear, I fully agree with the above. What I meant in the OP was that there is scope for interpreting it wrongly (IMO). I am 100% sure I have played away against guys who have had some (to me) very strange ideas about how the honour is decided and have said everyone in their area did the same. It was a good few years ago and I can't remember where I was when this happened .... Scotland or NE England would be likely. If they were talking bollocks then fine. I was just interested to see if there was anyone who did follow the "winning the hole outright" method even though to me this is clearly wrong.

 

[Ethan]

Exactly as Robobum states in agreement with the OP. Lowest gross followed by next lowest and so on.

It seems to me after looking at the rule in the OP that some people need to learn to read and not be so picky. "they" is used after a comma and clearly refers to the subjects of the sentence ie the 2 people who have the same score. NOT the whole group or it would have said so....jeez....

Is that your opinion or a fact? Some people confuse the two.

As the person who raised this in another thread, please let me confirm that I can read perfectly well, thanks.

It is a perfectly reasonable interpretation, shared by a number of sources who answer golf questions on the internet, that if any players tie a hole, the hole is tied and the honour does not pass. I don't know why some here seem to take umbrage at the suggestion and believe that because they and their mates do it a different way, they must automatically be right. I bet it ain't the only rule they have wrong.

 

[jammydodger]

Is that your opinion or a fact? Some people confuse the two.

As the person who raised this in another thread, please let me confirm that I can read perfectly well, thanks.

It is a perfectly reasonable interpretation, shared by a number of sources who answer golf questions on the internet, that if any players tie a hole, the hole is tied and the honour does not pass. I don't know why some here seem to take umbrage at the suggestion and believe that because they and their mates do it a different way, they must automatically be right. I bet it ain't the only rule they have wrong.

Just because you can read perfectly well doesn't mean you understand the rule well. It's written in English and states very clearly in English what the rule is. Your interpretation and that of your self styled guru interweb mates is wrong , that's all.

 

[Ethan]

Is that your opinion or a fact? Some people confuse the two.

As the person who raised this in another thread, please let me confirm that I can read perfectly well, thanks.

It is a perfectly reasonable interpretation, shared by a number of sources who answer golf questions on the internet, that if any players tie a hole, the hole is tied and the honour does not pass. I don't know why some here seem to take umbrage at the suggestion and believe that because they and their mates do it a different way, they must automatically be right. I bet it ain't the only rule they have wrong.

Just because you can read perfectly well doesn't mean you understand the rule well. It's written in English and states very clearly in English what the rule is. Your interpretation and that of your self styled guru interweb mates is wrong , that's all.

Sorry, I disagree with you and unless you are a member of the Rules Committee of the R&A, then your opinion is worth exactly no more or no less than mine.

If you can't tolerate different opinions to yours, and want to get all ranty and ignorant, perhaps you would be more comfortable at Mumsnet. It may suit you better.

 

[Kellfire]

I have to agree with jammydodger et al. The wording is NOT ambiguous at all, it is worded in a way that can only mean that you retain the order you teed off on the previous hole if you shared a score on the previous hole.

 

[Ethan]

I have to agree with jammydodger et al. The wording is NOT ambiguous at all, it is worded in a way that can only mean that you retain the order you teed off on the previous hole if you shared a score on the previous hole.

You are not agreeing with jammydodger. That is not what he said at all. Ironically, it is what I said - if any players tie the hole, the honour does not change.

 

[Robobum]

The R&A don't share your opinion though Ethan. They do not use the "one tie all tie" method you speak of in their flagship event or any of the others that come under their control. That much can be seen just from watching, not necesarily being a R&A rules committee member.

This is a snip from a USPGA pro website, so it doesn't seem as though they share your opinion either.

" Example: Alan, Bob, Carl and Don are playing together. By a random method it is determined that the order of play off the first tee will be Alan, Bob, Carl and then Don. The scores on the first hole are Alan 5, Bob 6, Carl 5 and Don 4. The order of play on the second tee will be Don, Alan, Carl and then Bob: Don had the low score, so he goes first; Alan and Carl tied, but Alan played before Carl on the previous hole so he retains his position in the order after Don; and Bob had the highest score so he plays last on the second hole."

About the best description I've found.

 

[Leftie]

"The competitor with the lowest score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground. The competitor with the second lowest score plays next and so on. If two or more competitors have the same score at a hole, they play from the next teeing ground in the same order as at the previous teeing ground."

For clarity, turn the rule around.

If two or more players have the same score on a hole then they play from the next teeing ground in the same order as at the previous teeing ground. Note...No mention of any other player, either of lower or higher score.

"The competitor with the lowest score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground."

If the above two or more players have the lowest score then they have the honour but play in the order with respect to the above.

Simples

 

[Smiffy]

What about in a Stableford competition?
I've always been led to believe, (rightly or wrongly), that as it's a points based format, the points won on a particular hole, not the gross score, dictate the teeing order for the next hole.
For instance, I have the honour over James on a par 4 where I am shotting but he isn't.
I make bogie, James makes par. Despite the fact that James's par beat my bogie, I retain the honour by token of the fact that he didn't "outpoint" me.

 

[chris661]

Do people really get worked up over this? Personally I could not give a toss when I play in a strokeplay comp, in matchplay it does matter more though and I would worry about it then.

 

[Smiffy]

Do people really get worked up over this?

I'm chilled.
It's still my honour