Telephone Sales

[Crazyface]

HELP!!!! It's 5 in the bloomin morning I've had a row with my dad who's been in and out of hospital for the last three months and seems to actually be on the mend and is now being preyed on again by various sales type people. He's not been fully with it for a while now and got a call from a company who installed a new PVC door after his first stay in hospital. At the time he had now idea why they had called, but I did!!!!! As I have said he's making a good recovery this time and has started to retake control of his stuff, which I have been dealing with. I had a right set too yesterday with him whilst visiting him with my wife over two bank statement that had gone missing. Why was he fretting over this????? "I need to know where my money is". Then he said I'd messed things up. BOOM I was gone, but wife stayed with him and gave him a rocket. That evening we had a familly meeting to try and sort out some things for him. Care actually, and how to get him a wet room installed. During this meeting my wife revealed he'd had a visit from the PVC windows people and had ordered two new windows (£1000) which he does not need. We've also discovered that he has been receiving £220 a month off the DWP for care help which he has not been having!!!! During our meeting he called me again to rant over these missing statements. He got all my heavy artillery fire and infantry attack. But the nasty arrogant xyz would not back down over the new windows, which he has paid a deposit !!!!!! He cannot see he's been scammed!!!!!! Also, we sort of realised that maybe the sales person may have lifted the statements. They were in full view on his dining room table!!!! Now they might not have, maybe I'm being paranoid. I want to cancel his order for these windows, he does not need them, but he won't cancel as this would be admitting he doesn't know what he is doing and is not in control of what he is doing. (Which he does not!!!) I have been run ragged for three months supporting him whilst in hospital and now he's out, and this time recovering well, ie back to being his nasty horrible self, he has now annoyed me, all in three days I might add, to the point where I want to wash my hands of him.
I'm at my wits end and feel I've wasted three months of my life for no reason.

 

[Ross61]

I’m assuming he has some form of dementia. I’ve had one grandparent, my father, father-in-law and now my mother-in- law have this. I don’t know your father but my first advice is try your utmost not to get angry with him.Despite what you think, if he has dementia, he is not doing things on purpose and his defence mechanism is to blame you for his embarrassment of any failings he is having. 2nd piece of advice is to get him properly assessed and get an expert in.

 

[chrisd]

I'm no expert and my dad, whos how dead, left home when I was 5 and I never saw him again.

Your dad is clearly suffering with a mental disorder and imo is not going to either be helped, or make rational decisions with you ranting at him. Yes, he needs help to deal with these matters but I reckon an easy, non confrontational chat is the only way forward. Speak to the window company, put the order on hold, talk to the boss there and explain your dad's issues, if they don't like it tell them that you might need to talk to trading standards about their sales technique but be very nice, at least early on.

It not easy but ask your dad if he had be willing to sign a lasting power of attorney ( if that's what it's called) so that you can help him long term with his affairs if he continues to be Ill.

DO NOT GET ANGRY WITH HIM. It's not his fault.

 

[Simbo]

Really feel for you here mate, I made a huge post a few weeks ago on here about cold calling and the fear of my parents getting suckered into a scam. I take it your dad lives alone?
Maybe you should use the free half hour with a solicitor and try and see what they say about the window situation.
Protection against future issues like this could be getting a power of attorney done. There are various levels of control you can have over his finances. Ranging from full control over everything right down to maybe giving him a limit which he can spend without having to verify it with you, this would let him feel like he’s not losing his independence but also allow you to keep track of what’s he actually doing from the background. This is a meet in the middle act IMO. You can also contact everyone he makes direct debits payments to and his bank etc and ask to be able to deal with his business. You will both need to sign a form for this due to data protection act.
It’s tough for someone who’s in your dads situation, try and see it from his side aswell and try and keep your cool👍

 

[Hobbit]

Been there, although without the explosions.

First of all, if it is early onset dementia do not confront his arguments. Its the worst thing you can do with someone who believes they are fully in control of the faculties.

Secondly, involve Social Services. They will deal with the situation without the emotion. They may also put in place a 'patient's advocate.' A patient's advocate is usually a solicitor who will ensure that it is your father who is always put first. They may argue with you, but they will also argue with Social Services if they feel they are not doing the right things.

Thirdly, whilst he's still capable of making some decisions try and get 'lasting power of attorney' put in place that can be triggered at a later date when he finally loses his grip. This will make life 10x easier when it comes to dealing with scammers - we were able to recover over £10k from various companies who saw the mother-in-law as easy prey.

 

[jusme]

Its not clear by your post as to whether he has the legal capacity to make decisions for himself, whether temporary or permanent. If you believe he has not and whilst in hospital (this is crucial) get him assessed. This type of issue is my job. To get him assessed in the community takes months and whilst in hospital it can be done in days.

Request a social worker (based on site) meets you and him and present your concerns to them. If they agree that capacity is a potential issue they will have an on-sight psychiatrist assess him for legal capacity and based on this persons judgement/assessment you can proceed down the legal route to have someone else take over his affairs without his consent. When a psychiatrist judges him not to have legal capacity this is all the evidence required to have the law fall behind you on taking over his affairs (if you are best judged to do so).

Note capacity is task specific, therefore the assessor will need to look at his capacity in managing his own finances, taking decisions in regards to his own care etc etc. Being assessed as not having legal capacity in one area does not automatically mean he will not have it legally in another.

 

[Crazyface]

Oh god thank you for the advice, I really need to vent this. The LPA, I've looked into and as long as he can appear to be able to make his own decisions, which he has been able to convince other Professionals he has then the LPA doesn't come into effect.

 

[Crazyface]

He has a "Dementia advance Car Plan" in Place what ever that is?

 

[Hobbit]

He has a "Dementia advance Car Plan" in Place what ever that is?

The ACP is, usually, for later when an individual has lost the ability to make reasoned decisions. By the sound of it you are in the most difficult phase, i.e. when the individual still believes they are capable of making all their own decisions. Bear in mind, most dementia sufferers will experience depression as they realise they are losing it.

With regard to the double glazing, a quiet word with the company, explaining the LPA and that you will be looking to cancel the order might just stop them in their tracks. They won't want to make up the windows if they won't get to fit them, and/or have to return the money.

 

[Crazyface]

THANK YOU EVERYONE for you help.
Windows man rang my dad,after speaking to me, and talked him out of it. What a very nice man!!!!
Nat West sending replacement statements, was a tad tricky but we managed it.
DWP - Are sending a copy of the signed document they have on file regarding his payments (don't think I mentioned this) that he is receiving and cn't understand how they got his bank details, despite us telling him it could ONLY be from him. It's the DWP for Gods sake.

Three goals in to the top corner for me. Massive sigh of relief. Wife is dealing with sorting his home care. Son and his wife sorting him having a Wet Room installed. We're calling this a shower room to save confusion with him and raising his suspicions.

OMG I could weep. Stressed out ? To the eyeballs!!!!!!

 

[Lord Tyrion]

My MiL has been diagnosed with Alzheimers. It has been clear for a good while something was not right but we could not get her or the FiL to take action. I can look at it dispassionately but it is different for direct family. You have years of history with your dad, good or bad and that gets thrown into the mix. My FiL and SiL are struggling to deal with the change. They still shout at her, correct her, tell her to stop being stupid etc. Very hard for my wife to see how they are behaving. Me, I smile, listen to the same story 4 times in 15 minutes and look surprised every time. To her she is telling it for the first time.

Deep breaths, keep calm, no matter how he acts. It is hard to take but your dad can't deal with these things any more and it is not his fault. It is not your dad from 10 yrs ago, things have changed. Some things we have learned. Don't ask lots of questions, don't give endless choices. They will just get more confused, more angry. Simplify everything, keep smiling, talk calmly. If you reach boiling point, walk away.

Good luck mate, it is tough to deal with.

 

[Tashyboy]

FiL has it, won't admit to it and it's not easy to deal with especially as he can rant and rave and has been known to get a bit violent. SiL took him and MiL on holiday to Cornwall. Originally SiL denied there was a problem with her father. After a week she was taking notes and is going to " talk to him".
Ironically Missis T spoke to her ma and Pa and mentioned about FiL seeing the GP. MiL said an appointment has been made, that evening Missis T rang MiL and asked how FiL had gone on, " fine, very good" was the reply " no problems". A month or two later Missis T was round at her parents house and FiL was still having his ,omens but worse. She said " mum I cannot believe this has not been picked up by the GP". MiL looked sheepish and said " he never went, no appointment was made, your dad was kicking off, so I just kept quiet to keep the peace".
CF a lot of good advice given on here, small steps forward are better than big backward steps 👍 Good luck me man.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

My dad had it, and in the early stages I would say to my mum that I thought he had early onset, which initially she dismissed, then when she went to the doctors he said my dad was just “getting old”.
Anyway, he had a fall, and was taken into hospital for the first time since his birth(he was late 70’s). Because of his condition, he could get a little aggressive and would try to get out the ward. Because of these 2 things the hospital started to sedate him (as seen on Panarma, and only really came to light after he had gone).
Once over the fall, he was put into a nursing home having been diagnosed with dementia and aggressive with it ( and my mum was unable to look after him now). He gave up, and not long later (3 months after going into hospital initially) he died.
My biggest thanks is that it was only 3months in that condition. It was horrible seeing him like that, and can fully sympathise with your situation.
I appreciate this isn’t a happy tale, but just retelling it makes me feel how lucky we and my dad were it didn’t drag on for him.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

FiL has it, won't admit to it and it's not easy to deal with especially as he can rant and rave and has been known to get a bit violent. SiL took him and MiL on holiday to Cornwall. Originally SiL denied there was a problem with her father. After a week she was taking notes and is going to " talk to him".
Ironically Missis T spoke to her ma and Pa and mentioned about FiL seeing the GP. MiL said an appointment has been made, that evening Missis T rang MiL and asked how FiL had gone on, " fine, very good" was the reply " no problems". A month or two later Missis T was round at her parents house and FiL was still having his ,omens but worse. She said " mum I cannot believe this has not been picked up by the GP". MiL looked sheepish and said " he never went, no appointment was made, your dad was kicking off, so I just kept quiet to keep the peace".
CF a lot of good advice given on here, small steps forward are better than big backward steps  Good luck me man.

It took us about a year of cajoling before we got the MiL seen. It was as clear as day but the rest of the family would not acknowledge it. The FiL just brushed it off. It eventually reached a point where it could not be more obvious and the FiL could not deny it any longer. When he tried we just gave a list of examples that had occurred recently, giving him nowhere to go to. The MiL was not at all keen so we worded it in a round about sort of way, in effect we tricked her but she did not know it.

It is incredibly hard to get them seen if other family members are giving them an out. It drove us crackers but you need to stick with it. There is no miracle cure but just giving it a name and a proper diagnosis means the family have to accept and deal with it.

We are now trying to get them to tell people in their village so that others can be more accommodating, lots of nice stories coming out after the Barbara Windsor release last week, but that is proving an issue at the moment. Step by step.....

 

[Robster59]

My FiL lives with us and is certainly going through the early stages. After being ill a few weeks ago, he certainly took a further backward step. I read a few things about it after the Barbara Windsor article and the thing to consider is that the person who is starting to deteriorate almost certainly knows this and is fighting against it and want's to prove they're still fully compus mentus. So would I, who wants to admit to the alternative?
I'd hate to be in that position and if he's railing, it's not against you, it's the condition and his refusal to accept he's not as all there as he once was.
Like LT, as he's my FiL I can take a bit more of a backward, less confrontational stance but its never going to get easier so start relaxing now or you're just going to stress yourself out.
Shouting ABSOLUTELY does not work, nor does trying to be condescending. Try to talk to them in a normal logical way. They want to be treated as they always did, and I fully respect that.

 

[Crazyface]

I've had my first day off yesterday, from dealing with my dad, for three weeks, courtesy of my son and wife taking up the baton whilst I had a round of golf. Only my second this year. Much relaxed I went to pick my wife up from my dads. He'd been given a bit of a talking to by both apparently. Although he didn't appolgise, as my son had told him he should do, that would be a first he does not possess the word in his vocabulary, he was a lot calmer and more relaxed. Well I'd sorted all the bit he was obviously getting worked up for. He still dosn't know I'd asked the windows man to cancel his order and thinks the bloke did it off his own bat. Oh well, if he does ever need a new window(s) we'll know where to go to. All is good for now. It's been good to read all the comments on who to behave/cope with the situation, and I've delegated the two other bits. Wife is sorting care (someone to call at tea time to make his tea) and Shower room installation (son and his wife). We are going to let my dad somehow (it's his money) pay for the shower room, so that he is in charge. Deep down he knows he must let us deal with things, I think it's just the fact that it has been taken away from him, ie how he does things, eg. pay bills when they arrive, at the post office in town, yes he did, and I'll bet loads still do! I think it's a long bumpy road were on and I just hope he will let us smooth the way for him.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

CF - I think you may have to accept that apology will never come. In his world he has done nothing wrong. Unfortunately for you, you are now going to have to be the better man on each and every occasion, no matter how many buttons that presses. The good news is that it sounds as though your family are helping out and other agencies are also getting involved. Anything that releases the pressure.