Teeing Ground and Advice

[jim8flog]

And that is my question. Rather than opinions please direct me to rules and decisions that say it’s okay to “ advise” someone they are about to break the rules if that play a shot.

As I said above I DID stop him but how is he not gaining and advantage from my comment as he’s otherwise get a 2 stroke penalty? Is that not an advantage to his ultimate score, not having that penalty on there?!?

The wording you are looking for is in the definitions
Advice
"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.
Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

Not only are you allowed to tell someone that they are about to break a rule, you should tell them.

Nothing worse (in rules ) than a player waiting until after you have incurred the penalty before telling you could have avoided it.

 

[Matty]

The wording you are looking for is in the definitions
Advice
"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.
Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

Not only are you allowed to tell someone that they are about to break a rule, you should tell them.

Nothing worse (in rules ) than a player waiting until after you have incurred the penalty before telling you could have avoided it.

I've read that over and over - tell me this:

Player is about to play his shot from the wrong place and I tell him he is at the wrong tee position - how exactly is that not influencing the player in determining play? He stops and moves to the correct tee position based on what I said and save a 2 stroke penalty.

The section on 'Advice' and 'Information' doesn't seem to cater for situations where 'information' about the rules might become 'advice', where is that boundary? Is it simply that any discussion about rules, irrespective of whether or not it influences a player, is never advice? Or can it be?

See decision 8-1/16 here. Taking an unplayable lie drop is Rule 28, so surely it's what and how you say it.

I could therefore make an argument that why should I risk a penalty or DQ to stop someone else getting a penalty or DQ.

The rules are complex, open to interpretation and too many think they know them. I don't know the rules well enough and am trying to learn but the more I read the more complicate it gets!

 

[KenL]

No!

As per The Rules (http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-32) Stableford is a form of Stroke Play! The alternative (to Stroke Play) is Match Play!

Thanks for that foxholer. I hate (and hate others) being put down on here for the most miniscule of technicalities ;-)

 

[chrisd]

I've read that over and over - tell me this:

Player is about to play his shot from the wrong place and I tell him he is at the wrong tee position - how exactly is that not influencing the player in determining play? He stops and moves to the correct tee position based on what I said and save a 2 stroke penalty.

The section on 'Advice' and 'Information' doesn't seem to cater for situations where 'information' about the rules might become 'advice', where is that boundary? Is it simply that any discussion about rules, irrespective of whether or not it influences a player, is never advice? Or can it be?

See decision 8-1/16 here. Taking an unplayable lie drop is Rule 28, so surely it's what and how you say it.

I could therefore make an argument that why should I risk a penalty or DQ to stop someone else getting a penalty or DQ.

The rules are complex, open to interpretation and too many think they know them. I don't know the rules well enough and am trying to learn but the more I read the more complicate it gets!

My understanding, but I'd stand corrected, if a match is being refereed through its entirety the referee will, if he spots a player about to transgress a rule will usually point this out to the player beforehand. If, however, he is walking with several groups he won't do so as it would be unfair to the rest of the field ?

 

[Colin L]

My understanding, but I'd stand corrected, if a match is being refereed through its entirety the referee will, if he spots a player about to transgress a rule will usually point this out to the player beforehand. If, however, he is walking with several groups he won't do so as it would be unfair to the rest of the field ?

Yes to the first part. A referee allocated to a match should always (not just usually) prevent a player from breaching a rule. If not allocated to one match they have no authority to intervene except for Rules 1-3, 6-7 and 33-7. It's not a matter of being unfair to the rest of the field as there is no field in match play, just the player(s) and their opponent(s). It is fairer to both that if a referee is not on the spot all the time, he should not get involved in a haphazard sort of way.

 

[rulefan]

1) Warning a player that he is about to breach a rule is information about the rules. It is not advising him on how to play.

2) Rule 32-1b tells us that "The marker is responsible for marking only the gross number of strokes at each hole where the competitor's net score earns one or more points."
There is no requirement to hole out. A player cannot be DQd for not completing a hole.

 

[Colin L]

1) Warning a player that he is about to breach a rule is information about the rules. It is not advising him on how to play.

2) Rule 32-1b tells us that "The marker is responsible for marking only the gross number of strokes at each hole where the competitor's net score earns one or more points."
There is no requirement to hole out. A player cannot be DQd for not completing a hole. However, holes cannot be omitted.

Coughing discreetly, may I whisper 32-1/2?

 

[rulefan]

Yes to the first part. A referee allocated to a match should always (not just usually) prevent a player from breaching a rule. If not allocated to one match they have no authority to intervene except for Rules 1-3, 6-7 and 33-7. It's not a matter of being unfair to the rest of the field as there is no field in match play, just the player(s) and their opponent(s). It is fairer to both that if a referee is not on the spot all the time, he should not get involved in a haphazard sort of way.

From the R&A's Guidance on Running a Competition

This raises the question of the referee’s ethical position when he sees a player about to break
the Rules. The referee is not responsible for a player’s wilful breach of the Rules, but he
certainly does have an obligation to advise players about the Rules. It would be contrary to the
spirit of fair play if a referee failed to inform a player of his rights and obligations under the
Rules and then penalised him for a breach that he could have prevented. The referee who tries
to help players to avoid breaches of the Rules cannot be accused of favouring one player
against the other, since he would act in the same manner towards any player and is, therefore,
performing his duties impartially.

The following are examples of actions that a referee may take in order to prevent a breach of
the Rules:
(i) ......
(ii) ......
(iii) If a player tees his ball ahead of the markers, draw his attention to it before he drives.

There is no distinction between allocated and roaming referees. But roaming referees cannot award penalties except than in relation to Rule 1-3, 6-7 or 33-7.

 

[rulefan]

Coughing discreetly, may I whisper 32-1/2?

Oops

Thanks, now corrected

 

[Colin L]

There is no distinction between allocated and roaming referees. But roaming referees cannot award penalties except than in relation to Rule 1-3, 6-7 or 33-7.

I'm a bit puzzled by that. The Definition of a referee says that a roaming referee has no authority to intervene in a match other than regarding these 3 rules. It does not explain what intervention is or isn't. Is stepping in to prevent a breach not intervening? I've read it as such.

 

[Matty]

My understanding, but I'd stand corrected, if a match is being refereed through its entirety the referee will, if he spots a player about to transgress a rule will usually point this out to the player beforehand. If, however, he is walking with several groups he won't do so as it would be unfair to the rest of the field ?

That's not really applicable though is it? There is no referee though as was the case last weekend.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I didn’t think something so simple could be made confusing

It’s just common sense and manners - you see someone is about to tee off from the wrong tee - let him know as soon as you realise.

Done it a number of times - it very simple

 

[Matty]

I didn’t think something so simple could be made confusing

It’s just common sense and manners - you see someone is about to tee off from the wrong tee - let him know as soon as you realise.

Done it a number of times - it very simple

It's also common sense that a small white sticker on the face of a club isn't going to have much, if any impact, on your golf round, but tell that to Ben Crane:
https://www.pga.com/news/golf-buzz/stickers-two-clubs-lead-eight-shot-penalty-ben-crane

It's a very simple question: "you see someone is about to tee off from the wrong tee", if you tell him is it "advice" or not? They are about to make a stroke and your comment will make them stop, reposition their ball and have another go.

Match play, it's simple, at your option you can accept the stroke or ask them to play it again, so just let them hit it and then decide.

Stroke play, not at all simple.
11-4 b: If a competitor, when starting a hole, plays a ball from outside the teeing ground, he incurs a penalty of two strokes and must then play a ball from within the teeing ground.

We know we cannot give "advice" and it is defined as follows: "Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play etc

By pointing out the imminent breach is it not reasonable to conclude that you would "influence a player in determining his play"? By passing comment the player about to commit the breach is caused to decide upon a different course of action for that hole, and furthermore it confers them an advantage of not gaining a 2 stroke penalty.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

It’s not Advice to tell them that they are teeing up on the wrong tee - simple , can’t be any more simple

Sometimes it’s best not to over complicate things.

 

[rulefan]

That's not really applicable though is it? There is no referee though as was the case last weekend.

A referee cannot give advice anyway. But the point you keep missing is that it is not advice.

 

[rulefan]

I'm a bit puzzled by that. The Definition of a referee says that a roaming referee has no authority to intervene in a match other than regarding these 3 rules. It does not explain what intervention is or isn't. Is stepping in to prevent a breach not intervening? I've read it as such.

If a roaming referee was not permitted to prevent a breach surely the Guidance would have mentioned it.
However, that is what I was advised when I did my first England job.

 

[Matty]

Rulefan /Liverpoolphil

You say it’s not advice. Fair enough by Why[\B]? I’m asking for proof and nobody can show me how this is not influencing the player in determining their play, which IS advice. That’s the simple bit, if you can make an assertion you should be able to prove it too.

 

[rulefan]

Rulefan /Liverpoolphil

You say it’s not advice. Fair enough by Why[\B]? I’m asking for proof and nobody can show me how this is not influencing the player in determining their play, which IS advice. That’s the simple bit, if you can make an assertion you should be able to prove it too.

"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

1) How does telling him he is in front of the tee markers influence his play. Will he change his ball, club, stance, direction of play or swing?
Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

2) Is it information about a rule? You must strike the ball from within the teeing ground.
Is it public information? The tee markers are behind your ball.


Given that a player who takes advice from anyone is penalised, referees (who contribute to this forum) are told:

If a player tees his ball ahead of the markers, draw his attention to it before he drives.

Do you really think that a referee would be advised to give advice to a player causing the player to be penalised?

 

[oltimer]

Rule 9/1 refers to giving incorrect "information" on the Rules, nowhere does it state "advice", so apparently giving "information" on the Rules is acceptable and it does not state at what state of play this information may be given.

 

[Matty]

"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

1) How does telling him he is in front of the tee markers influence his play. Will he change his ball, club, stance, direction of play or swing?
Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

2) Is it information about a rule? You must strike the ball from within the teeing ground.
Is it public information? The tee markers are behind your ball.


Given that a player who takes advice from anyone is penalised, referees (who contribute to this forum) are told:

If a player tees his ball ahead of the markers, draw his attention to it before he drives.

Do you really think that a referee would be advised to give advice to a player causing the player to be penalised?

I like this reply, it presents facts and information to back the position, rather than just a statement of opinion.

But...

How does telling him he is in front of the tee markers influence his play.

By telling a player he is about to break a rule surely you are influencing their play, you are influencing them to NOT break a rule and therefore not get a 2 stroke penalty. The risk being they don't get the penalty but you could be at risk for giving advice.

This brings me back though to something I asked earlier in the thread around HOW the information is said.

For example,"You are in front of the tee markers" or "You are on the wrong colour tee" is a statement of fact and public information so that would be reasonable if we accept you are not influencing them to not break a rule.

But "I wouldn't play from there if I was you" is said in a more subjective and could easily be construed as advice. See decision 8-1/16