Stupid rules questions.... (sorry)

[Duckster]

I expect that the confirmation Rulefan is waiting for will be from the R&A.

I dropped the R&A a question about it last night and have just had this response (I stand corrected as I was the one who added the part about announcing first then dropping).

Dear Adam



Thank you for your email and query on the Rules.



Under Rule 27-2a, if a player fails to announce that he intends to play a provisional ball and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball. Therefore, the player can drop the ball and provided he makes the statement to the effect that it is a provisional ball prior to playing it, it is a provisional ball played in accordance with Rule 27-2a.

That's that settled then.

 

[atticusfinch]

As others have said, read the rules literally. The R&A reply is merely a paraphrase of rule 27-2.

 

[CliveW]

I too stand corrected and apologise for any angst I have caused.

 

[bladeplayer]

I dropped the R&A a question about it last night and have just had this response (I stand corrected as I was the one who added the part about announcing first then dropping).

Dear Adam



Thank you for your email and query on the Rules.



Under Rule 27-2a, if a player fails to announce that he intends to play a provisional ball and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball. Therefore, the player can drop the ball and provided he makes the statement to the effect that it is a provisional ball prior to playing it, it is a provisional ball played in accordance with Rule 27-2a.

That's that settled then.

There you go Jezz one for the rules page of the mag ...

 

[Colin L]

Thanks for doing that, Adam.

 

[Foxholer]

....
Under rule 15-2, when you drop or place a substituted ball, it becomes the ball in play. The original ball ceases to be the ball in play (by definition) – although it is not a lost ball (also by definition because you have not made a stroke at the substitute).

Now you have the ball in play, at your feet. It is neither lost nor OOB. So where does the provision for playing a provisional ball come in?

I guess the thing I’m getting at is, that if the above is not flawed – how do you stop a substituted ball becoming the ball in play unless you say its to be a provisional before you drop it?

(Ps does not decision 27-1/2 somewhat support this?. Although not identical circumstances since the possibility of a provisional had long passed,, the act of dropping the ball made it become the ball in play even though the original was not lost)

Am going to have to disappear so look forward to reading later.

Couple of different things there.

15-2 is all about a Substituted Ball, which may or may not affect a ball dropped in a possible Provisional situation. Just as a possible Provisional ball tee-ed up only becomes a Substituted ball, therefore the 'ball in play', when a Stroke is made with no 'Provisional' announcement, so the ball from elsewhere on the course only becomes a Substituted ball, therefore the 'ball in play', when a stroke is made with no 'Provisional' announcement.

So there is a period of limbo where one of 2 possibilities will occur, but it may not become apparent which will occur until a Stroke, or announcement, is made. There is nothing wrong with having that period of limbo though.

27-1/2 is the situation that caused me confusion last night (incorrectly applying this to Provisional Ball) - about the difference between Teeing area and elsewhere. It's not about Provisional - as you can't 'go back' and play a Provisional ball. And, like making a stroke if replaying it from the tee, once the substituted ball is the 'ball in play', then the original ball is lost. For a ball elsewhere on the course, a legitimately Dropped ball is the 'ball in play' once it strikes any part of the course.

 

[rulefan]

I dropped the R&A a question about it last night and have just had this response (I stand corrected as I was the one who added the part about announcing first then dropping).

Dear Adam



Thank you for your email and query on the Rules.



Under Rule 27-2a, if a player fails to announce that he intends to play a provisional ball and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball. Therefore, the player can drop the ball and provided he makes the statement to the effect that it is a provisional ball prior to playing it, it is a provisional ball played in accordance with Rule 27-2a.

That's that settled then.

Someone other than the person who replied to you rang me asking if my call earlier had related to your question. They thought it unlikely to be coincidence. They confirmed my view and have now copied me the answer sent to you.

 

[rulefan]

For a ball elsewhere on the course, a legitimately Dropped ball is the 'ball in play' once it strikes any part of the course.

Unless it is being dropped as a provisional (eg after the original was played from the fairway and may have gone OOB).

 

[CliveW]

Couple of different things there.

15-2 is all about a Substituted Ball, which may or may not affect a ball dropped in a possible Provisional situation. Just as a possible Provisional ball tee-ed up only becomes a Substituted ball, therefore the 'ball in play', when a Stroke is made with no 'Provisional' announcement, so the ball from elsewhere on the course only becomes a Substituted ball, therefore the 'ball in play', when a stroke is made with no 'Provisional' announcement.

So there is a period of limbo where one of 2 possibilities will occur, but it may not become apparent which will occur until a Stroke, or announcement, is made. There is nothing wrong with having that period of limbo though.

27-1/2 is the situation that caused me confusion last night (incorrectly applying this to Provisional Ball) - about the difference between Teeing area and elsewhere. It's not about Provisional - as you can't 'go back' and play a Provisional ball. And, like making a stroke if replaying it from the tee, once the substituted ball is the 'ball in play', then the original ball is lost. For a ball elsewhere on the course, a legitimately Dropped ball is the 'ball in play' once it strikes any part of the course.

This too is where I was getting confused, many thanks for clearing it up, however I am still confused about the "Ball in Play". I agree that the ball is in play as soon as it touches the course through the green, so how can you declare a ball as a provisional after you drop it, as it is now in play?

 

[Foxholer]

Unless it is being dropped as a provisional (eg after the original was played from the fairway and may have gone OOB).

Thanks.
I guess you are correct. There were too many sets of commas, dashes and parentheses to consider! Shame the error was about a rather key point!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I haven't really been following this so apologies if already been covered.

This ruling seems to imply that if I carve a ball away into the doggy-doo I can decide to myself that I will play a provisional. Without declaring a second ball to be a provisional I can drop it at the point from where I would play a provisional from. But it bounces and lands in a horrid place. As I have not declared it as a provisional does it have any standing or can I just pick it up and drop it again seeking a better outcome?

It would seem logical to me that the very act of dropping a ball in a position that happens to be where I would drop a ball to put a second ball in play or for a provisional means that it must be one or the other - and so is 'the ball in play' until I declare it 'provisional'.

 

[Foxholer]

This too is where I was getting confused, many thanks for clearing it up, however I am still confused about the "Ball in Play". I agree that the ball is in play as soon as it touches the course through the green, so how can you declare a ball as a provisional after you drop it, as it is now in play?

There's a difference between a ball being the 'ball in play' - ie the one to use - and a ball simply being 'in play' - ie available for use.
Where 'Provisional' is not declared. The 'in play but not the ball in play' state of the possible provisional changes to 'in play and the ball in play' when a Stroke is made. And of course, the original ball's state changes too.

I think Rulefan posted about ROs being discouraged from using the phrase 'in play' - though it perfectly describes the state.

 

[Foxholer]

I haven't really been following this so apologies if already been covered.

This ruling seems to imply that if I carve a ball away into the doggy-doo I can decide to myself that I will play a provisional. Without declaring a second ball to be a provisional I can drop it at the point from where I would play a provisional from. But it bounces and lands in a horrid place. As I have not declared it as a provisional does it have any standing or can I just pick it up and drop it again seeking a better outcome?

It would seem logical to me that the very act of dropping a ball in a position that happens to be where I would drop a ball to put a second ball in play or for a provisional means that it must be one or the other - and so is 'the ball in play' until I declare it 'provisional'.

You are quite entitled to pick it up and try to drop it better.

But Rule 18 applies, so it will cost you 2 shots/loss of hole!

And bear in mind the rather simple process/set of events that Bobmac alluded to in post 36!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I will go and read rule 18

 

[Foxholer]

I will go and read rule 18

There was a time when 'Rule 19' was an oft spoken occasionally feared expression. But that's a different set of rules - and the current equivalent is Rule 23!

 

[rulefan]

That wasn't a Rule but a Clause

 

[atticusfinch]

a second ball in play or for a provisional means that it must be one or the other - and so is 'the ball in play' until I declare it 'provisional'.
And then it is provisionally in play pending further events.