Students Grants Done Away With

[delc]

Surely the skills shortages we have in the UK are practical skills such as building, plumbing, engineering, electrical work and customer services. That is why we have so many foreigners working here, who have been taught these skills in their own countries. Degrees in Needlework or Media Studies are pretty irrelevant to this need!

 

[Snelly]

Many working class people do not like to take on large debts, even if there is an escape clause that saves you paying them back..

If you are too thick to work out that it is a safe bet then you shouldn't be going to university in the first place. Even the most downtrodden member of the underclass should be able to see the sense in it if they are bright. Your post does a disservice to the working class kids in the UK in my view Ethan.


I paid student loans by the way and didn't begrudge it one bit. That said, I think times have changed and I regularly interview graduates that are next to useless and put this down to the devaluation of a degree as rightly pointed out in this thread by Ethan and others.

I have two kids and my wife and I are in complete agreement that if they want to go to Uni and be funded by the Bank Of Mum and Dad then it is vocational courses only. Otherwise forget it and find a trade.

 

[Rooter]

I have two kids and my wife and I are in complete agreement that if they want to go to Uni and be funded by the Bank Of Mum and Dad then it is vocational courses only. Otherwise forget it and find a trade.

I'm getting worried about the frequency of agreement to Snelly's posts of late. Should i seek help?

100% behind the idea of University Degrees should be in a subject that you are wanting to work in and will be beneficial to you (or society) in the long run, ie Medicine, law, engineering etc etc, not just a 2:1 in something silly for the sake of it. Take my brother for example, he has a 1st in Politics! LOL he is now Editor of a motorcycle magazine.

 

[delc]

When I was at school those who passed their 11+ (about 30%) went to grammar school and probably about 10% of these went on to University. The next brightest went to Secondary Technical Schools where they were taught practical skills and the real thickos went to Secondary Modern Schools. This probably wasn't totally fair to late developers, etc, but it sort of worked, and didn't waste resources trying to teach the unteachable. Oddly enough, those who went to Secondary Tech schools often did better in later life than the Grammar School kids, other than the real high flyers.

Unfortunately this system was done away with in the interests of the Socialist ideals of "Equality" and "Equality of Opportunity". All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others, to quote George Orwell.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

When I was at school those who passed their 11+ (about 30%) went to grammar school and probably about 10% of these went on to University. The next brightest went to Secondary Technical Schools where they were taught practical skills and the real thickos went to Secondary Modern Schools. This probably wasn't totally fair to late developers, etc, but it sort of worked, and didn't waste resources trying to teach the unteachable. Oddly enough, those who went to Secondary Tech schools often did better in later life than the Grammar School kids, other than the real high flyers.

Unfortunately this system was done away with in the interests of the Socialist ideals of "Equality" and "Equality of Opportunity". All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others, to quote George Orwell.

Yup - it was 5% of Scottish Secondary School pupils in my day who went to Uni (I recall being told back then). And so free tuition and grants were affordable. I was fortunate enough to be bright enough to go given my folks couldn't afford to pay anything for me to go - in fact I had to give my mum some of my grant for my keep as I lived at home all through my uni education.

 

[Ethan]

If you are too thick to work out that it is a safe bet then you shouldn't be going to university in the first place. Even the most downtrodden member of the underclass should be able to see the sense in it if they are bright. Your post does a disservice to the working class kids in the UK in my view Ethan.


I paid student loans by the way and didn't begrudge it one bit. That said, I think times have changed and I regularly interview graduates that are next to useless and put this down to the devaluation of a degree as rightly pointed out in this thread by Ethan and others.

I have two kids and my wife and I are in complete agreement that if they want to go to Uni and be funded by the Bank Of Mum and Dad then it is vocational courses only. Otherwise forget it and find a trade.

Your post contradicts itself. In the first para you say that a uni education is a safe bet, then in the second that you interview graduates and many are next to useless, so presumably you don't hire them.

I was exactly one of those working class kids. Neither of my parents went to uni, and I was the eldest and my parents didn't believe in taking loans out for stuff and there was no bank of Mum and Dad available.

I do agree with the emphasis on vocational qualifications, though. My generation went to uni to get qualifications that would advance them in a career, not to learn stuff for its own end. The latter is fine, though, so long as you pay for it yourself.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Your post contradicts itself. In the first para you say that a uni education is a safe bet, then in the second that you interview graduates and many are next to useless, so presumably you don't hire them.

I think you've misread his first paragraph?

He was pointing out that if you can't work out that the loan (not the education you receive) is a safe bet. It may be that he doesn't hire them, in which case they don't pay back the "loan". That's a pretty safe bet.

 

[alexbrownmp]

Most graduates I have seen in non related careers to their degree have been worse than useless. A degree for the sake of it and years of being a student.

 

[delc]

Most graduates I have seen in non related careers to their degree have been worse than useless. A degree for the sake of it and years of being a student.

Keeps them off the unemployment register for 3 or 4 years, which is all the Government (and their spin doctors) care about! Might learn something useful along the way if they are lucky?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If you are too thick to work out that it is a safe bet then you shouldn't be going to university in the first place. Even the most downtrodden member of the underclass should be able to see the sense in it if they are bright. Your post does a disservice to the working class kids in the UK in my view Ethan.

Fear is not always logical - and some of the brightest can hold irrational fears.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Fear is not always logical - and some of the brightest can hold irrational fears.

I don't know what this is suggesting. We should completely change the system (which you must be agreeing is fair, by saying fear isn't logical?) because of irrational fears?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I don't know what this is suggesting. We should completely change the system (which you must be agreeing is fair, by saying fear isn't logical?) because of irrational fears?

I'm saying that bright kids from poorer backgrounds may well understand what they are told about how the student loan system works - but fear about loans and what they have meant in the past, may be a barrier that they and their parents may not be able to get past.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

I'm saying that bright kids from poorer backgrounds may well understand what they are told about how the student loan system works - but fear about loans and what they have meant in the past, may be a barrier that they and their parents may not be able to get past.

So that's the problem, I understand that. What are you saying should be done to fix it?

I'm of the opinion that if that happens, so be it. It's unfortunate, but there is no foolproof plan for removing irrational fears without damaging the system. students have teh current system explained to them time after time throughout sixth form (with the added ability of the internet on which to research all of this), that I can't see what further could be done.

 

[Ethan]

I think you've misread his first paragraph?

He was pointing out that if you can't work out that the loan (not the education you receive) is a safe bet. It may be that he doesn't hire them, in which case they don't pay back the "loan". That's a pretty safe bet.

My point is that it can't be a safe bet if there is a cohort of unemployable graduates caused by the inflation in numbers and the dilution in quality of courses. Once upon a time, it was a safe bet. It ain't now. Therefore it is logical to be cautious about taking on a loan.

 

[delc]

I can only speak for myself as a fairly middle class person, but I wouldn't fancy 3 years with no income stream coming in and a £45k debt to pay off when I do start working!

 

[Snelly]

My point is that it can't be a safe bet if there is a cohort of unemployable graduates caused by the inflation in numbers and the dilution in quality of courses. Once upon a time, it was a safe bet. It ain't now. Therefore it is logical to be cautious about taking on a loan.

Agreed, almost anyway.

Safe bet: Engineering, Mandarin, Law, Medicine, Accountancy, Architecture etc.... High risk - anything that isn't vocational.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

I can only speak for myself as a fairly middle class person, but I wouldn't fancy 3 years with no income stream coming in and a £45k debt to pay off when I do start working!

And there we have it, someone else who doesn't understand how this works.

It's not £45k to pay off. It's a small % of your salary, if you're succesful. The £45k becomes fairly meaningless, until you get near the point of settling it.

 

[delc]

And there we have it, someone else who doesn't understand how this works.

It's not £45k to pay off. It's a small % of your salary, if you're succesful. The £45k becomes fairly meaningless, until you get near the point of settling it.

No point in getting a degree if I couldn't get a well paid job (when I would be paying the debt off) as a result. As many student loans are not going to be paid off, it probably wouldn't cost the Government any more to re-instate maintenance grants and payment of tuition fees! The more successful graduates will be paying higher rate taxes anyway!

 

[MegaSteve]

I thought the whole point of education was to learn how to take on board information and comprehend what you were being taught... You then applied those learned 'skills' in your chosen profession... But, then what would I know being a secondary modern thicko who 'studied' agriculture and horticulture... Then went and did something completely different in adult life... Back in my day 5 O levels opened the doors to a lot of opportunity...

 

[jp5]

I thought the whole point of education was to learn how to take on board information and comprehend what you were being taught... You then applied those learned 'skills' in your chosen profession...

Is that not what's happening already?

On the topic of students, I see the Tories have another barnstorming proposal:
"Foreign students will be banned from working in the UK and forced to leave as soon as they finish course under Theresa May's tough new visa rules"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eresa-mays-tough-new-visa-rules-10385232.html

An astonishingly stupid idea to dissuade the best students from studying and working here, in an attempt (I can only assume) to get somewhere near their target migration numbers which they spectacularly missed previously. But I'd rather net migration continue at the current level than target this young, well-educated, aspirational demographic.