Students Grants Done Away With

[Hacker Khan]

Most companies dont need a lot of graduates, they need a lot of people with practical skills that could be obtained at college. just like they used to before Blair/Brown decided otherwise.

Not entirely convinced it is labour's fault that on the whole companies will prefer to recruit new employees that have a degree over ones that don't.

 

[SocketRocket]

Not entirely convinced it is labour's fault that on the whole companies will prefer to recruit new employees that have a degree over ones that don't.

I disagree. Please explain the types of companies that would prefer to recruit a high proportion of people with degrees?

 

[delc]

Not entirely convinced it is labour's fault that on the whole companies will prefer to recruit new employees that have a degree over ones that don't.

Yes, if they have good degrees from a traditional university, not a 3rd class degree in knitting from a former technical college!

 

[Foxholer]

,,,
Education is an investment in society. The country needs doctors, nurses, teachers, scientists, accountants, whatever, and these people pay extra taxes and provide services to the economy. We could probably live with fewer bankers, though. Many of these courses on media studies and marketing are simply a waste of time.

While I share your detest of the greed of bankers, the 'banking and insurance' (Financial Services) industry provides a huge amount of both GDP and tax revenues, so the sooner the Banking industry gets sorted out the better imo! Bankers have been pretty consistent at providing 7-8% of the overall PAYE/NIC tax take. Corporation Tax, from Banking industry profits, have rocketed down from around 20% of overall amount to around 5%, something that isn't good for the country! In numbers, that's around £21 Billion in PAYE/NIC, CT and the Bank Levy (on bonuses), so pretty significant!

 

[the smiling assassin]

Heard a frightening stat about a uni up here a couple of years ago:
52% of annual spending on general administration. NOT including department/course specific admin. No wonder tuition fees are so high and teaching hours are dropping so fast. What a joke.

 

[delc]

We both people to do the kind of job you can leave school at 15 to do, plus people to do jobs that need several years at university doing cutting edge research to do. As without either the country would be screwed.

Do you not agree that schools should teach their kids enough life skills and knowledge to get into working life. Due the breakdown in discipline, schools have become more like industrial scale child minding facilities!

 

[Hacker Khan]

I disagree. Please explain the types of companies that would prefer to recruit a high proportion of people with degrees?

We are increasingly living in a knowledge economy and what separates the best companies from the others is intellectual capital, this increasingly being a main way of gaining a competitive advantage. And whilst I agree they are a crude measure of intelligence, having a degree is often seen as a way to differentiate when you are recruiting new employees. Of course it is not true for all jobs and nor should it be , but that's the way the world is turning.

 

[SocketRocket]

Because companies need an educated workforce. And if UK plc can only offer 10% of the workforce being university educated then we will have no chance. We have to compete globally and plenty of countries are investing in education and ensuring as many of their young people can compete for the best jobs.

We have many people immigrating to the UK who are not University Graduates but Skilled Crafts people: Plumbers, Carpenters, Builders etc. These people have been trained at technical colleges in their home countries, something we have cut back on for decades, this is a prime example of us having to compete globally and falling well short while accepting a situation where we have high numbers of young people on benefits rather than obtaining the skills that will give them a chance of living a rewarding life.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Do you not agree that schools should teach their kids enough life skills and knowledge to get into working life. Due the breakdown in discipline, schools have become more like industrial scale child minding facilities!

Most schools have little say in what they teach as it is mandated by the government. I agree that schools could be more vocational, but they will not be judged on that but on attainment and progress of their pupils against very strict targets set by the government of the day. And unfortunately education is a political football with most policies being as much ideologically driven as educationally driven.

Also not all schools have a breakdown in discipline. And where there is, a lot of the blame would be better apportioned to the parents.

 

[Foxholer]

I disagree. Please explain the types of companies that would prefer to recruit a high proportion of people with degrees?

Virtually every industry where the role is 'technical' rather than 'manual'!

However, the possession of a degree neither proves the candidate is really more suitable for a role, nor does it need to be relevant to achieve what many employers are looking for in a candidate with a degree! What it does demonstrate is that the graduate can stick at a task and organise their life sufficiently to achieve graduation That's a set of skills that's rather desirable for most employers. The actual technical details involved are often irrelevant - except in the likes of teaching, doctoring, lawyer-ing and higher levels of Financial Services.

While you are very unlikely to get a job as a lawyer without a law degree, I knew of 1 employer who used to 'do the milk round' specifically looking for candidates outside of his industry (IT) and only once employed an IT graduate - who had a 1st from Cambridge, so was a bit special - his (Archeology grad) colleague was more useful for many things though!

 

[SocketRocket]

We are increasingly living in a knowledge economy and what separates the best companies from the others is intellectual capital, this increasingly being a main way of gaining a competitive advantage. And whilst I agree they are a crude measure of intelligence, having a degree is often seen as a way to differentiate when you are recruiting new employees. Of course it is not true for all jobs and nor should it be , but that's the way the world is turning.

I think you are overcooking the size and concept of this 'Knowledge Economy' and the inference that it's something new. There are indeed companies that are very 'high tec' and need very clever people to develop cutting edge products but these companies are not a large part of industry.

I think we all agree that the cleverest of people need support and help to reach their potential to assist the country to keep up or ahead of the field. Currently we are producing too many graduates that don't have such skills but feel they have a right to high paid work and good prospects, they dont want to do manual jobs but expect to start out in management positions with no experience of working life. Many end up jockeying for position in low level Supermarket/Burger Bar supervisory roles working for a few bob over the minimum wage. IMO its a social experiment that went wrong.

 

[duncan mackie]

Not entirely convinced it is labour's fault that on the whole companies will prefer to recruit new employees that have a degree over ones that don't.

When I was employing this wasn't true.

Working with no 3 son to gain employment it defineltly isn't true.

Even the old adage that "if absolutely everything else is equal between 2 candidates you give the job to the graduate" now has substantial detractors ( the one without the advantage of going to uni has.still a manged to get this level...)

If you learn important things in getting your degree - great

As Ethan has posted one issue is the courses and importantly entry have been dumbed down ( in my day we completed the basic year 1 syllabus at school and got entry to establishments that appreciated that and took it forward) now the.majority will take anyone who pays ( and perversely those not paying and receiving subsistence grants pay best) and the basic concept of educating ends up the looser.

In simple terms people that may benefit UK plc are making decisions based on factors such as Western how many children in family and whether parents can afford them all (loans are an element but parents still kick in to balance things where they can) - this isn't good for UK plc.

On the other hand we retain a huge number of teaching and administrative roles...which strangely hasn't occupied much of this thread.

 

[SocketRocket]

Virtually every industry where the role is 'technical' rather than 'manual'!

Most manufacturing industries are 'Technical' but require more people with practical skills than degrees. There are indeed many high tec organisation like 'Software Developers that are the exception. The vast majority of jobs are not high tec and dont require degrees. There are many jobs that require skilled crafts people though and we have become poor at supplying people with these skills.

 

[Foxholer]

Most manufacturing industries are 'Technical' but require more people with practical skills than degrees. There are indeed many high tec organisation like 'Software Developers that are the exception. The vast majority of jobs are not high tec and dont require degrees. There are many jobs that require skilled crafts people though and we have become poor at supplying people with these skills.

I agree! That's why I used the word 'role' rather than the word 'industry'!!

 

[Ethan]

While I share your detest of the greed of bankers, the 'banking and insurance' (Financial Services) industry provides a huge amount of both GDP and tax revenues, so the sooner the Banking industry gets sorted out the better imo! Bankers have been pretty consistent at providing 7-8% of the overall PAYE/NIC tax take. Corporation Tax, from Banking industry profits, have rocketed down from around 20% of overall amount to around 5%, something that isn't good for the country! In numbers, that's around £21 Billion in PAYE/NIC, CT and the Bank Levy (on bonuses), so pretty significant!

Yeah, but there is the small matter of crashing the world economy through their corruption and incompetence, and everyone with a house, private pension or savings pays for it. And although they pay some tax, they prefer not to pay as much (in proportion terms) as the rest of us.

 

[Ethan]

It's not much of a gamble though, is it? In fact it's as far from a gamble as can be. You do well - you pay it back. You don't do well - you don't pay it back.

At no point are you asked to pay back more than you earn. No where close in fact. So not sure how that would constitute living outside modest means?

Many working class people do not like to take on large debts, even if there is an escape clause that saves you paying them back. And the gamble is also that while you are whiling away 3 or 4 years doing a degree in hotel services before failing to get a job because there are hundreds of people with similar degrees looking for the few jobs, you are not doing a job which earns a decent wage.

Wasting time costs money too - economists call it opportunity cost.

 

[jp5]

Many working class people do not like to take on large debts, even if there is an escape clause that saves you paying them back. And the gamble is also that while you are whiling away 3 or 4 years doing a degree in hotel services before failing to get a job because there are hundreds of people with similar degrees looking for the few jobs, you are not doing a job which earns a decent wage.

Wasting time costs money too - economists call it opportunity cost.

Perhaps more needs to be done to educate the 'working class' that a student loan is no traditional debt then. I was fully aware that the debt I was taking on was, for all intents and purposes, a tax of a few percent for a term somewhere in the region of 10-20 years, that would be written off if unpaid after 25 years.

I saw it as a great leveler - no matter your background, you were given a free hit at choosing a worthy education and improving your career prospects.

I agree that there are people who 'while away' the 3/4 years and come out at a disadvantage compared to those that had been working during that time. Those were most definitely a minority in my cohort.

The answer to that is more vocational training options. University isn't for everyone. Young people aren't stupid - give them options, give them facts about future prospects - and they will generally know what's best for them.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Perhaps more needs to be done to educate the 'working class' that a student loan is no traditional debt then. I was fully aware that the debt I was taking on was, for all intents and purposes, a tax of a few percent for a term somewhere in the region of 10-20 years, that would be written off if unpaid after 25 years.

I saw it as a great leveler - no matter your background, you were given a free hit at choosing a worthy education and improving your career prospects.

I agree that there are people who 'while away' the 3/4 years and come out at a disadvantage compared to those that had been working during that time. Those were most definitely a minority in my cohort.

The answer to that is more vocational training options. University isn't for everyone. Young people aren't stupid - give them options, give them facts about future prospects - and they will generally know what's best for them.

BiB I do agree with - 'loan' has pretty negative connotations if you don't (as a family) have a great deal of income or your employment is not so secure. It implies an amount of money that you must pay back in full in a relatively short period of time regardless of your financial circumstances.

 

[jp5]

BiB I do agree with - 'loan' has pretty negative connotations if you don't (as a family) have a great deal of income or your employment is not so secure. It implies an amount of money that you must pay back in full in a relatively short period of time regardless of your financial circumstances.

Yup - it's essentially a tax, not a loan. Lose your job, you have nothing to pay. Unlike a mortgage, traditional loan, credit card debt etc.

There is a complete lack of personal finance education in schools - the above should form part of it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Yup - it's essentially a tax, not a loan. Lose your job, you have nothing to pay. Unlike a mortgage, traditional loan, credit card debt etc.

There is a complete lack of personal finance education in schools - the above should form part of it.

I completely agree. I am sure that a fear of taking a huge 'loan' does have a significant negative impact on the thinking of many students from poorer families - and it just needn't be so.