Still no solution?

[pokerjoke]

Looking at the new GM magazine today and as usual I start with the forum then to the back page for Bill Elliotts piece.

This month its about slow play again and it seems its a recurring theme within golf monthly.
No problem with that but it seems that after a 2 day conference the R@A have once again failed to find a solution and it also seems that in Bills words it has been like this for the 39 years he has been writing about golf.
So is it really a big issue or has it always been like this.

Bill is certainly right about the pro game it is way to slow and even though they are playing for millions it can be tedious to watch at times and must be a nightmare for TV companies to allocate time.

However Bills solution about the amateur game wont work either because first of all telling someone they are being rude and they are ruining a fine game will get the go away response but with 2 swear words and also could lead to fisticuffs on the course.

There is only one way to cure the pro game and that's shot penalties although hard to implement consistently but unless someone grows some balls and gets the ball rolling[parden the pun] it will continue.

In the amateur game just forget it as it will always be this way because there are too many variables that constitute to slow play.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

The "solution" is a change of attitude from golfers and until that changes slow play will exist in the amatuer game.

How many times have we heard/read "I've paid xxx amount for this round and I'll play at my pace". People who no matter how badly they're playing they refuse to let the group behind through, marking cards on greens etc.

There's members at every club that that fall into the above category.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

I'm really not sure of the root cause of slow play in the amateur game but there is absolutely no doubt it is slower now than when I started playing. A 'quick' round would be under 3 hours, now people think they should get a pat on the back for getting round in under 4 hours

In December last year, Merv79 and myself played 36 holes at West Sussex. As visitors we weren't allowed to tee off until a certain time, can't remember if it was 9:30 or 10 o'clock and we had an hour for lunch yet we got round easily by just being ready to play. It's not difficult, mostly it comes down to inconsiderate people.

 

[Hobbit]

The solutions are simple, its just that there's no buy in from players at any level. Once upon a time you knew if you were playing slower than those around you, and you stepped back and let a group through. No one said you are too slow, they accepted your pace of play because you did the right thing and let them through.

How many times do you hear "we're not letting the group behind through as they've got nowhere to go." But the group in front may also let them through, especially if its a 2-ball amongst 4-balls.

Its not a stigma to be slower than other groups, but it is a failing not to let them through.

Anyway, we've done this to death many times. Nothing will change until stroke penalties are applied to full groups.

 

[3puttmaster]

The solutions are simple, its just that there's no buy in from players at any level. Once upon a time you knew if you were playing slower than those around you, and you stepped back and let a group through. No one said you are too slow, they accepted your pace of play because you did the right thing and let them through.

How many times do you hear "we're not letting the group behind through as they've got nowhere to go." But the group in front may also let them through, especially if its a 2-ball amongst 4-balls.

Its not a stigma to be slower than other groups, but it is a failing not to let them through.

Anyway, we've done this to death many times. Nothing will change until stroke penalties are applied to full groups.

I couldn't agree more. Until penalties are rigidly enforced in the professional game they'll continue to crawl round. All tours need to get this addressed asap.

Clubs need to introduce penalties too for slow play; however, this becomes very difficult in regards to casual play. As 'Hobbit' says quite rightly, we've been here many times and unless every course can have at least 2 marshals patrolling the course then it isn't going to get any better. Many clubs have tried to address the slow play issue (including mine) but it never gets any better, if anything, it's getting worse.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Nothing will change until death penalties are applied to full groups.

Fixed for you Brian

 

[GreiginFife]

Another issue with this is that there are so many facets to what constitutes slow play that it becomes difficult to control, this then requires effort and that turns people off.
Common sense is the biggest solution to many of the problems, and there in itself lies a problem.
Take today for example, we were behind a pair that didn't exactly use the "know your limits" thinking, unable to drive the ball more than 230 yards but waiting for greens to clear more than 240 yards away before playing their next shots. It was obvious that they weren't reaching but they would not relent. One of them also had one of the longest pre-shot routines I have ever seen before he knobbed it 30 yards at 6ft altitude.

The attitudes of golfers changing and the application of common sense would be a good start but by no means a holistic solution IMO.

 

[Leereed]

I think it's easy, our 4 ball will do 18 holes in 3 to 3 1/2 hours, we will play out of turn if ready to play and in stableford can't score we pick up and get the flag for the other players.And in this weather if you ready to go on tee you just go, to cold to be stood around while one dicks about in his bag.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I've said on here before there needs to be penalties in the pro game. Think it's something absurd like 10 or so penalties handed out on tour in the last 25 or so years so there's no fear factor and while they may get put on the clock they know there's little chance of anything further happening

 

[GreiginFife]

I think it's easy, our 4 ball will do 18 holes in 3 to 3 1/2 hours, we will play out of turn if ready to play and in stableford can't score we pick up and get the flag for the other players.And in this weather if you ready to go on tee you just go, to cold to be stood around while one dicks about in his bag.

Yes, its easy because you and your fellow players are exercising common sense and buy in to the fact that its what needs to happen.
As Hobbit says, buy in from the "furtherst plays first" sticklers is still not fully forthcoming and thats a big part of the problem.

 

[3565]

I've said on here before there needs to be penalties in the pro game. Think it's something absurd like 10 or so penalties handed out on tour in the last 25 or so years so there's no fear factor and while they may get put on the clock they know there's little chance of anything further happening

Considering they are pros who inevitably hit the ball better, further, chip and putt better, take less shots yet take over an hour longer for a Pro 3 ball then an amateur weekend 4 ball, they have a long way to catch up to the weekend 4 ball time wise. And until that happens, nowt will change.

 

[fundy]

Round and round in circles. Only way it changes is if the powers that be actually want to do something about it and theyve made it quite clear over the past 10+ years they dont. Not prepared to penalise one big name player in a big tournament but happy to have plenty of days away in nice surroundings to discuss it again and again without ever actually taking any action.

For any constructive change there needs to be full scale education as to what is and isnt acceptable (at pro level then filtering down at every level in the amateur game) and then the pro tours have to buy into this with hefty penalties (ultimately those that will cost someone a tournament).

But on the basis thats not gonna happen it will just get slowly worse year after year......

 

[3565]

Round and round in circles. Only way it changes is if the powers that be actually want to do something about it and theyve made it quite clear over the past 10+ years they dont. Not prepared to penalise one big name player in a big tournament but happy to have plenty of days away in nice surroundings to discuss it again and again without ever actually taking any action.

For any constructive change there needs to be full scale education as to what is and isnt acceptable (at pro level then filtering down at every level in the amateur game) and then the pro tours have to buy into this with hefty penalties (ultimately those that will cost someone a tournament).

But on the basis thats not gonna happen it will just get slowly worse year after year......

How about, time penalties for Pro's. If you take over X hrs XXmins the whole group will be docked X amount of shots? Most courses have timings on how long it should take for ie 5 holes, 12 holes etc.
Bet your bottom dollar if they rewarded them if they got under a certain time they would get a shifty on.

But I totally agree with your viewpoint.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

At our level, which is where it actually affects us, the only way slow play can be policed is by course marshals, on patrol, telling groups to speed up or ordering groups through if necessary.

Unfortunately this costs money.

 

[Smiffy]

The biggest problem I find is people not being ready to play when it is there turn.
Step up onto the tee of a par 4 or 5 where a driver is definitely the club to go with and one of your group hasn't even got their club out of the bag when it is their turn.
Also when they have to walk around the other side of the green to chip on and only take their wedge with them, leaving the putter in the bag. They then cock their chip up, just make the edge of the green and you then have to wait for them to walk back to their bag and get their putter out.
Okay in a bounce game you can go out of turn to speed play up a bit, but if you're playing in a competition you are knackered.

 

[drdel]

In many cases I think clubs/courses often allow groups out onto the course on too tight slots. Add the mix of abilities, and number of players in a group and there will be issues on what some see as slow and others see a fine pace of play.

Our group of 4 usually get round in well under 4 hours (the course's target time on the card is a shade over 4 hours). The other week a group reported us to the pro-shop for slow play! We assume it was the following group but no-one had approached us and neither had they appeared to be held up by us!

When perceptions can vary so widely I suspect this is an issue to which there is no "one-size-fits-all' solution.

The professional game operates in a different bubble but sets a bad example. Professionals could play faster but the lengthy 'Board room' discussions with caddies and getting putts lined up by the caddy should be stamped on by a one-shot penalty for every20 seconds over the target time.

 

[AMcC]

We played on Monday in a three ball and took just under three hours. We all holed out at every hole and did some searching for balls. As others have said we played "ready" golf. Whoever was ready just played, the only change to that was on the green and we tended to let the person furthest from the hole putt first. Everyone needs to be prepared to play, have everything they need to hand, as well as a decent walking pace will help speed things up.
My pet hat is someone having to go back to their bag for a provisional ball, at ours it is pretty much guaranteed that everyone has one in their pocket, so we are not too bad for that, but away games are when I see it most.

 

[chrisd]

I play generally 3 games a week and, at ours, a 4 ball takes just shy of 4 hours. I can't recall many games at home,or away for that matter, where the speed of play was a real issue and if I've driven for 90 minutes to play a course I wouldn't overly worry about slow play if the weather was lovely and the course was worth the drive. If I play at a top course then I would go there expecting a very slow round but be content if it's quicker than I thought it would be.

That's not to say I disagree with etiquette being properly observed.

 

[cliveb]

I've said on here before there needs to be penalties in the pro game. Think it's something absurd like 10 or so penalties handed out on tour in the last 25 or so years so there's no fear factor and while they may get put on the clock they know there's little chance of anything further happening

I propose that an appropriate penalty regime for the pros is as follows:

Once you get to your ball, you have 40 seconds to play your shot. If you don't do it by then, your caddy has to play the shot instead.

(I initially meant this as a joke, but now I'm not so sure - could this actually work?)

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I play generally 3 games a week and, at ours, a 4 ball takes just shy of 4 hours. I can't recall many games at home,or away for that matter, where the speed of play was a real issue and if I've driven for 90 minutes to play a course I wouldn't overly worry about slow play if the weather was lovely and the course was worth the drive. If I play at a top course then I would go there expecting a very slow round but be content if it's quicker than I thought it would be.

That's not to say I disagree with etiquette being properly observed.

This ^^
Genuinely can't remember when I have played and slow play has been an issue, Home course - People tend to tee off similar times each week.
Away course - be ready to play, respect course, enjoy.
If I was constantly experiencing slow play to were it became an issue I would change when or where I played.
Do people on here constantly experience slow play or is it being over-hyped?