Steps in bunker.

Neilds

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A bunker is vertically upwards from the sand so if the step is on the side of the bunker (outside of the sand) it is not in the bunker. The relief is for an immoveable obstruction in general area ie free relief within one club length not nearer the hole. But if the offending step is within the vertical margin of the bunker it would have to be dropped in the bunker but without any penalty.
Interesting first posts on a thread that is well over 2 years old!!!! Did you forget to put your spam link in the response? :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 

Colin L

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I am not getting mixed up. I am stating that if my ball is on a step that is outside of the bunker (on side of the bunker) I would get free relief outside of the bunker as I was not in it. One club nearest point of relief not nearer the hole.
Of course you would. And if your ball is on a step that overhangs the sand but isn’t touching the sand, what then?
 

wilspa

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Ignoring the vertical issue - would you agree that a ball on steps outside the bunker (on the side or riveted sides) is not in the bunker and as such would not have to be dropped into the bunker?
 

Colin L

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Ignoring the vertical issue - would you agree that a ball on steps outside the bunker (on the side or riveted sides) is not in the bunker and as such would not have to be dropped into the bunker?
You can't quite ignore the vertical. The first question to ask is where a ball on a obstruction is in relation to the edge of the bunker. If it is outside the edge, it's not in the bunker and relief, if taken, must be in the general area and is without penalty. If any part of it is inside the edge and the obstruction is touching the sand, it is in the bunker in which case the relief area must be in the bunker for free relief or outside it with a one stroke penalty.
 

wilspa

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You can't quite ignore the vertical. The first question to ask is where a ball on a obstruction is in relation to the edge of the bunker. If it is outside the edge, it's not in the bunker and relief, if taken, must be in the general area and is without penalty. If any part of it is inside the edge and the obstruction is touching the sand, it is in the bunker in which case the relief area must be in the bunker for free relief or outside it with a one stroke penalty.
So what you are saying is that if the bottom step (of say 5 steps) is obviously touching the sand then all of the 5 steps are in the bunker. If my ball was (say) on the top step 3 feet away from the sand you would still say that it was in the bunker? That is the confusion over this rule. In the past steps were not deemed to be in the bunker and free relief would be given at the nearest point of relief (within one club length) ie not having to drop in the bunker. So has this rule now been changed?
 

wilspa

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Of course you would. And if your ball is on a step that overhangs the sand but isn’t touching the sand, what then?
If the ball overhangs the sand I would deem it to be in the bunker and would expect to have a free drop but in the sand/bunker.
 
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Out for a few holes this pm I took the opportunity to check position of steps into bunkers as almost all our new bunkers have/require them. In all cases the first riser from the sand is in line with the face of the bunker - so no treads break the defined periphery of a bunker.
 

rulefan

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If the ball overhangs the sand I would deem it to be in the bunker and would expect to have a free drop but in the sand/bunker.
12.1 When Ball Is in Bunker

A ball is in a bunker when any part of the ball:
 

Colin L

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So what you are saying is that if the bottom step (of say 5 steps) is obviously touching the sand then all of the 5 steps are in the bunker. If my ball was (say) on the top step 3 feet away from the sand you would still say that it was in the bunker? That is the confusion over this rule. In the past steps were not deemed to be in the bunker and free relief would be given at the nearest point of relief (within one club length) ie not having to drop in the bunker. So has this rule now been changed?
Rule 12.1 which rule fan has quoted for you tells you when a ball is in a bunker. Note that for a ball on a abnormal ground condition (such as a set of steps) to be considered in a bunker, two conditions have to be met:
1) part of the ball must be within the edge of the bunker (i.e. directly above the sand); and
2) the abnormal course condition must be touching the sand in the bunker.

That's all there is to it.
 
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Colin L

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If the ball overhangs the sand I would deem it to be in the bunker and would expect to have a free drop but in the sand/bunker.
You would be wrong to do so just on the basis of where the ball is. With the explanations you've now had, you'll realise that you also need to consider whether the obstruction is touching the sand.
 
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I’ll note thanks for this discussion and rules clarification given we are putting steps into just about ALL our bunkers as we rebuild them.

Having previously not had steps into ANY of our bunkers I very strongly suspect that many members do not fully understand the rules around their ball resting on a tread or being in the sand with swing impeded by a riser. I did not. I do now. TY.
 

salfordlad

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I’ll note thanks for this discussion and rules clarification given we are putting steps into just about ALL our bunkers as we rebuild them.

Having previously not had steps into ANY of our bunkers I very strongly suspect that many members do not fully understand the rules around their ball resting on a tread or being in the sand with swing impeded by a riser. I did not. I do now. TY.
There would be considerable value in your club putting an information notice on the club local rules Notice Board to advise members how the rules treat these new creatures that will influence play in your new step-enhanced era. (Personally, I seek to avoid courses that employ bunkers of such depth that stairs in and out are needed.)
 
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There would be considerable value in your club putting an information notice on the club local rules Notice Board to advise members how the rules treat these new creatures that will influence play in your new step-enhanced era. (Personally, I seek to avoid courses that employ bunkers of such depth that stairs in and out are needed.)
I will make such a suggestion.

The reason for the steps (usually two, occasionally three) is that our new bunkers all have seriously steep - often vertical - reverted face all round. The sand is sloped up and smoothed to the face all round so that the balls rolls away from the face. If we just stepped down into a bunker we’d be seriously messing up the smoothed slope that the greens team put work into ensuring that we have - and that we members are encouraged to (and do) maintain.
 

salfordlad

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I will make such a suggestion.

The reason for the steps (usually two, occasionally three) is that our new bunkers all have seriously steep - often vertical - reverted face all round. The sand is sloped up and smoothed to the face all round so that the balls rolls away from the face. If we just stepped down into a bunker we’d be seriously messing up the smoothed slope that the greens team put work into ensuring that we have - and that we members are encouraged to (and do) maintain.
Good luck. In my experience, such bunkers over time tend towards a more level bunker base - ie, the nice angled original slopes gradually flatten and it gets progressively harder to recover and maintain the original shape - outside the very well resourced/high fee clubs. So you end up with a state of play where a ball that slowly rolls over the edge of the bunker drops and stays close to the near vertical face, producing an unplayable ball. Not a fan of such bunkers - at least with the old fashioned ones the perennial issue is just bad sand condition and a scratchy hack out rather than penalties.
 
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Good luck. In my experience, such bunkers over time tend towards a more level bunker base - ie, the nice angled original slopes gradually flatten and it gets progressively harder to recover and maintain the original shape - outside the very well resourced/high fee clubs. So you end up with a state of play where a ball that slowly rolls over the edge of the bunker drops and stays close to the near vertical face, producing an unplayable ball. Not a fan of such bunkers - at least with the old fashioned ones the perennial issue is just bad sand condition and a scratchy hack out rather than penalties.
Hopefully the design and the solid step up that supports the sloped sand will prevent the flattening you have experienced. Certainly the first rebuilt bunkers of over three years ago are basically still as new.
 

Colin L

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I will make such a suggestion.

The reason for the steps (usually two, occasionally three) is that our new bunkers all have seriously steep - often vertical - reverted face all round. The sand is sloped up and smoothed to the face all round so that the balls rolls away from the face. If we just stepped down into a bunker we’d be seriously messing up the smoothed slope that the greens team put work into ensuring that we have - and that we members are encouraged to (and do) maintain.
More sympathy for certain people, if you don't mind. The reason for steps should be for the benefit of those of us who need them to get in and out of a bunker. not necessarily that deep, safely. Or with some of them, get in and out of them at all.
 
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More sympathy for certain people, if you don't mind. The reason for steps should be for the benefit of those of us who need them to get in and out of a bunker. not necessarily that deep, safely. Or with some them, get in and out of them at all.
Which is if course the real reason we now have steps into most of our bunkers. Here‘s a vid of a typical new bunker showing clearly the recognition of need of ‘certain people’ 😉

 

Colin L

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Is there, I wondered, a remote possibility that a ball could end up on the bottom step slightly overhanging its edge and therefore be in the bunker? A complication to be avoided, I further wondered, by making the last riser slope forward a little so that the edge of the step is sufficiently outside the edge of the bunker to ensure part a ball couldn't be inside it?

Finally I wondered if I was being absurd in even thinking like this and should go and do something useful around the house. :unsure:
 
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