spirit of the game

[Papas1982]

I know what he's trying to say but
If you don't know what the rule is how can you pass judgment on it . It's just a ramble .

I think whenever relief is given you should measure with the cub you then use.

That’s not confusion, it was pointed out that in some instances that is the case, so I wasn’t saying he did anything wrong I’m simply saying i don’t agree with it.

 

[robinthehood]

I think whenever relief is given you should measure with the cub you then use.

That’s not confusion, it was pointed out that in some instances that is the case, so I wasn’t saying he did anything wrong I’m simply saying i don’t agree with it.

Ok fair enough.

 

[Orikoru]

I think whenever relief is given you should measure with the cub you then use.

That’s not confusion, it was pointed out that in some instances that is the case, so I wasn’t saying he did anything wrong I’m simply saying i don’t agree with it.

In fairness though that would mean you have to decide what club you're using before you've dropped it and seen the lie you end up with.

 

[robinthehood]

In fairness though that would mean you have to decide what club you're using before you've dropped in and seen the lie you end up with.

The rule already covers it pretty well, I don't really see any problem with the drop rules.

 

[Papas1982]

The rule already covers it pretty well, I don't really see any problem with the drop rules.

And that’s fine, the op asked what things we didn’t like. So i answered.

Time to move on

 

[Papas1982]

In fairness though that would mean you have to decide what club you're using before you've dropped it and seen the lie you end up with.

True, but using the example I saw today. Pretty confident nobody is gonna use their driver out of sand...

 

[duncan mackie]

True, but using the example I saw today. Pretty confident nobody is gonna use their driver out of sand...

But relief options aren't about which club you are going to use anymore (edit - see post 51 for clarification as this was badly worded by me!) 1cl is now defined as the length of the longest club in your bag excluding your putter. It could have been defined as 48", and was very nearly defined as a lesser length (so that it could be easily marked on a club shaft. It's simply a measurement.
Interference from your swing is still a function of the club you use (and had Poults tried to claim interference from something on either of his previous 2 strokes by using a driver I think it would have been queried!) but the previous link to that club and relief distances is now completely broken.

 

[Papas1982]

But relief options aren't about which club you are going to use anymore. 1cl is now defined as the length of the longest club in your bag excluding your putter. It could have been defined as 48", and was very nearly defined as a lesser length (so that it could be easily marked on a club shaft. It's simply a measurement.
Interference from your swing is still a function of the club you use (and had Poults tried to claim interference from something on either of his previous 2 strokes by using a driver I think it would have been queried!) but the previous link to that club and relief distances is now completely broken.

I know they have changed it, this isn’t a discussion where I need to be told what is right. I know what’s right and accept it. I just don’t like it.

 

[Grant85]

I actually think there are a lot of incidents where tour players do not follow the spirit of the game.

Countless incidents where guys hold up play to get officials over and ask for drops and try and claim their swing is impeded... two club lengths later and they are in the fairway.

Spieth at the Open was one example of a player using the relief rules to the extreme; taking fully 15 minutes to assess the hump his ball was on, walk round the practice ground a few times, knowingly drop somewhere near a truck where he would get another drop from. Ok, so he still had to follow it up with 2 incredible shots, but the delay to Kuchar's round and game was unfortunate and was ultimately caused by Spieth playing a horrendous shot off the tee.

Personally would rather have had the officials, and Kuchar putting the hurry up on him and getting him to make decisions far quicker. He should not have had all the time in the world to assess and plan that recovery.

 

[NearHull]

I am now more confused than ever about taking relief. I may have misunderstood previous posts but I’ve always believed that to take relief from a staked tree, you had to establish relief using the intended club and this assumption has not changed in the 2019 Rules. The previous posts seem to indicate that the longest club is used to establish the point of reference.

We were fortunate to have a member of my club provide a presentation of the new rules,( the member is also a European Qualified Referee and holds a relevant position in the County Association). During the presentation it was stated that to establish the point of reference it is recommended to use the club that the original stroke was to be made. The explanation being that using another club could mean that the resultant drop may not be in the correct place.

From the Definitions section , Estimating this reference point requires the player to identify the choice of club, stance, swing and line of play he or she would have used for that stroke.

Could someone please help to clarify my confusion.

 

[duncan mackie]

I know they have changed it, this isn’t a discussion where I need to be told what is right. I know what’s right and accept it. I just don’t like it.

My apologies for upsetting you. I wrote that to try to establish what it was you didn't like rather than as a lesson.
You had previously posted "I think whenever relief is given you should measure with the cub you then use."
As you previously, and currently, establish whether interference exists with the club you intend to use and establish the nearest point of complete relief with the club you intend to use; what you seem to not to like is what you actually have.
1cl merely establishes the relief area is a constant for any club or relief situation (even where your relief distance is, effectively, 1" - embedded ball you get this 1cl) and is related to dropping height and redropping requirements, not relief (although of course it effectively adds to any established relief in most cases).

 

[duncan mackie]

I am now more confused than ever about taking relief. I may have misunderstood previous posts but I’ve always believed that to take relief from a staked tree, you had to establish relief using the intended club and this assumption has not changed in the 2019 Rules. The previous posts seem to indicate that the longest club is used to establish the point of reference.

We were fortunate to have a member of my club provide a presentation of the new rules,( the member is also a European Qualified Referee and holds a relevant position in the County Association). During the presentation it was stated that to establish the point of reference it is recommended to use the club that the original stroke was to be made. The explanation being that using another club could mean that the resultant drop may not be in the correct place.

From the Definitions section , Estimating this reference point requires the player to identify the choice of club, stance, swing and line of play he or she would have used for that stroke.

Could someone please help to clarify my confusion.

See my post 51 which I was writing as you were posting - I apologise for the slack wording in an earlier post that could clearly cause such confusion.
Relief is club related where swing stance interference is involved, and npcr is involved- the subsequent establishment of the 1cl relief area is not.

 

[Papas1982]

My apologies for upsetting you. I wrote that to try to establish what it was you didn't like rather than as a lesson.
You had previously posted "I think whenever relief is given you should measure with the cub you then use."
As you previously, and currently, establish whether interference exists with the club you intend to use and establish the nearest point of complete relief with the club you intend to use; what you seem to not to like is what you actually have.
1cl merely establishes the relief area is a constant for any club or relief situation (even where your relief distance is, effectively, 1" - embedded ball you get this 1cl) and is related to dropping height and redropping requirements, not relief (although of course it effectively adds to any established relief in most cases).

You didn’t upset me. I’d not have liked your post had you. Just feel this discussion has gone on enough that’s all. Clearly I was wrong in regard to the rule and it’s implementation, but my thought remains that a full drivers length of relief is imo too much. If allows people to go from what can be a precarious position to having quite a nice one.

Plenty of times Mr Mickelson has worked it to his advantage. Lots of people will say, they’re the rules use them to your advantage. So I guess the crux of my point is that the rules shouldn’t be used to gain an advantage.

 

[NearHull]

Thank you Duncan Mackie for clarifying the ncpr. As an aside, I was intrigued at the our presentation by the specific use of the word recommend as used by the presenter. I didn’t question it as I felt the audience had enough of detailed questions at that point.
‘Recommend’ doesn’t seem to be in same context as ‘mandatory’ and implies choice - I must question the presenter at some point.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

You didn’t upset me. I’d not have liked your post had you. Just feel this discussion has gone on enough that’s all. Clearly I was wrong in regard to the rule and it’s implementation, but my thought remains that a full drivers length of relief is imo too much. If allows people to go from what can be a precarious position to having quite a nice one.

Plenty of times Mr Mickelson has worked it to his advantage. Lots of people will say, they’re the rules use them to your advantage. So I guess the crux of my point is that the rules shouldn’t be used to gain an advantage.

That's the point of this particular thread isn't it? A situation that is within the rules but doesn't sit right.

Duncan has clarified how the rule works, I learn a great deal from him and others about rules on here so keep doing that , but we are looking here at what we are uncomfortable with. It's a great example.

 

[duncan mackie]

Thank you Duncan Mackie for clarifying the ncpr. As an aside, I was intrigued at the our presentation by the specific use of the word recommend as used by the presenter. I didn’t question it as I felt the audience had enough of detailed questions at that point.
‘Recommend’ doesn’t seem to be in same context as ‘mandatory’ and implies choice - I must question the presenter at some point.

In this specific context the wording will be reflecting the fact that you don't have to use any club, or mark anything, in that process. There are very few must do elements in the rules going forwards.

As such presenters have been going a little overboard in their use of words (IMO) designed to convey this principle, but often causing confusion against past paradigms.

A players reasonable judgement has become the test for replacing a ball, relief situations and situations such as dropping from knee height. Any challenge would have to be based on it being clearly unreasonable - a huge change that people will take a long time to get to grips with (as they focus on process elements and penalty changes)
Sorry for the long post - I hope it's of use.

 

[NearHull]

Duncan Mackie,

I think your last paragraph really sums it up - it’s not a just a change to the rules, it’s a shift in perception.

 

[duncan mackie]

Duncan Mackie,

I think your last paragraph really sums it up - it’s not a just a change to the rules, it’s a shift in perception.

I prefer to consider it a further shift to the integrity of the player. The reality is that anyone can cheat at golf; the whole game fundamentally relies on the integrity of the player so the rules have encompassed that rather than gone the other way. Clearest practical example is that you are no longer required to mark you ball when taking a preferred lie.

The other interesting thing is that the word fair appears in the rules a lot more.