Slope Question

[Lord Tyrion]

Trying to get my head around the Slope system but this was particularly going through my head yesterday. My club had its Club Championship yesterday and also ran a comp for the higher h/c. Unfortunately they also put us on the same tees, some Blues as well as the regular whites. Add in no run from the heavy rain the day before and the heavy rain on the day and it became a bit of a slog. "How much nicer" I suggested to my PP on the 14th, "if we could have chosen to go off the yellows today"? As I trudged off up the fairway, head down, rain pouring my mind wandered to my club selection all day yesterday, driver, rescue, PW/Gap W. Every par 4 the same, throw in another rescue if I duffed the first one. I then mentally went through the course and realised that for my length the whole course would be better off the yellows. Sooooooooo

My understanding of Slope is that each tee, Blue, White, Yellow, Red, will get a rating. You can then play in the same comp off any of these tees but your score will be adjust accordingly. Is that correct?

Does your h/c change, ie one for yellows one for whites, or is it just the final score via CSS or whatever it will be called?

Has anyones course been rated yet and if so have you put the above into action?

If I have got the wrong end of the stick with this please be gentle

 

[duncan mackie]

1. Each set of tees is already rated with an SSS. No change there.
2. Yes, you get a handicap index which is then used in conjunction with the slope rating of the course and tees, which incorporates a bogey index, to spit out your playing handicap for that round and those tees. You are now comparing your score to par. Ie it's the same calculations but with par as the fixed bit and the handicap changes according to the course and tees rather than the handicap being fixed but the target not being par but the course rating (SSS).

Whether a single competition permits you to select your tees is outside the handicapping system. You can already do it using the existing elements (but if run as a Q event you have to run each tee set as a separate competition for handicapping and CSS but combine things for results)

 

[the_coach]

what tee-boxes are open to play from in any competition would be decided by the clubs committee

using the course rating # for course tee box's being played you would look to different in course rating number between one set of tees and the other set - or more if multiple sets of tees being used

Section 3

Players Competing From a Different Course Ratingâ„¢ or Tees

Q. When players are competing from a different USGA Course Rating or tees, why do you make a Course Handicapâ„¢ adjustment? What if players are competing from more than two sets of tees? Can a Committee ignore this adjustment?

A. A Course Handicap represents the number of strokes needed from a specific set of tees to play to the level of a scratch golfer; i.e., to the USGA Course Rating. The calculation of a Course Handicap only includes a player’s Handicap Index® and the Slope Rating® of the tees being played. When a USGA Course Rating difference exists among competitors, they are playing to different benchmarks, and an adjustment equal to the full difference in USGA Course Rating must be made in order for the competition to be equitable. Players competing from two different tees: Player A is competing from the Blue tees (71.0) and Player B is competing from the White tees (69.0). Since the USGA Course Rating difference is two strokes, Player A must add two to the Course Handicap calculated from the Blue tees. As an alternative, Player B may deduct two from the Course Handicap calculated from the White tees, as the overall effect would be the same (see Decision 3-5/1). Players competing from more than two sets of tees: Player A is competing from the Blue tees (71.0), Player B is competing from the White tees (69.0), and Player C is competing from the Gold tees (67.0). The recommendation is to add four strokes to Player A’s Course Handicap calculated from the Blue tees, add two strokes to Player B’s Course Handicap calculated from the White tees, and make no adjustment to Player C’s Course Handicap calculated from the Gold tees. Alternatively, Player C’s Course Handicap calculated from the Gold tees may be reduced by four strokes, Player B’s Course Handicap calculated from the White tees may be reduced by two strokes, and Player A’s Course Handicap calculated from the Blue tees would not be adjusted. A third option is to set the baseline at the middle and add two to the higher-rated tee player(s) and subtract two from the lower-rated tee player(s). The key is finding a baseline and adjusting from there. Please note that a golf club may not ignore Section 3-5/9-3c when players are competing from a different USGA Course Rating as doing so would be waiving a Rule of Golf. The Committee in charge of a competition does not have the authority to waive a Rule of Golf (see Decision 3-5/2). For a more detailed explanation of players competing from a different USGA Course Rating, please refer to “Setting the proper course for a two tee match.” Please visit Section 3-5 and 9-3c of The USGA Handicap System for further reference.

you would use a course handicap calculator by entering your handicap index and slope index to see what your course handicap index for that competition on that day (could use the math formula to calculate it - just simpler to use the calculator)

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-handicap-calculator.html

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Thanks Duncan. Is it then feasible, if the committee agrees to it, to run a comp and have 20 people off the whites and 20 off the yellows? Apologies if you have actually answered this already but I am trying to get it clear in my head.

One of the discussions yesterday was the decline in numbers playing comps. There are a number of reasons but ours is a long course and I think allowing members to play off the yellows in comps would be attractive to many.

 

[duncan mackie]

Thanks Duncan. Is it then feasible, if the committee agrees to it, to run a comp and have 20 people off the whites and 20 off the yellows? Apologies if you have actually answered this already but I am trying to get it clear in my head.

One of the discussions yesterday was the decline in numbers playing comps. There are a number of reasons but ours is a long course and I think allowing members to play off the yellows in comps would be attractive to many.

Yes - We ran Captains Day this year with members being permitted to select which of the 5 rated tees they wished to play from on the day. It was run as a stableford and handicaps were adjusted in line with the SSS differences to help people understand things more easily on the day. Par was a constant but there was a 7 shot difference between playing from the shortest to the longest tees.

However, I'm not a huge fan of this in serious competition because it's obvious (from results and observation) that on the same layout different tees will suit some very significantly.

What I am a huge fan of is clubs running different competitions off different tees through the year

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Thanks, that is really helpful. I'm not suggesting all comps are run this way but I think it is worth trialling on some. We have endless stroke play off the whites and it is not attracting anyone other than a hardcore which is declining. We need to mix things up, become more attractive. This won't work on every course but it would at my current one.

Certainly a starting point for our next meeting.

 

[moogie]

Thanks, that is really helpful. I'm not suggesting all comps are run this way but I think it is worth trialling on some. We have endless stroke play off the whites and it is not attracting anyone other than a hardcore which is declining. We need to mix things up, become more attractive. This won't work on every course but it would at my current one.

Certainly a starting point for our next meeting.

Try suggesting alternate weekends of yellow / whites
If it increases participation, it can only be good for all

Personally I don't mind which tees, it's a change
(Though not a huge diff on a lot of holes at ours)

You'd think as your place is just finding its feet under the new regime that they should be open to most suggestions👍

 

[Lord Tyrion]

It's a mixed time. The owner doesn't seem to get involved in the golf side, leaving that largely to the members. The club has its traditional comps and the hardcore like them and the fact it is strokeplay. Competition participation is notably down though, multiple reasons, so the captain was asking what to do. This years vice is very open to suggestions and apparently the captain has quite a say in the comps each year. I'll put the suggestion to them, along with asking for more variations of formats to see if that will help.

 

[Foxholer]

Definitely worth trying to mix it up, but wouldn't suggest trying to be too radical - and a serious comp of a variety of tees sounds too radical to me. Perhaps worth doing one for a 'non-serious' comp (is there such a thing?) though.

Strokeplay off Whites for Monthly Medal is fine - that's special. But one, or more, off Yellows and some comps being Stableford would quite possibly increase participation! Worth trying and monitoring participation levels imo.

Comps actually often 'compete' against club swindles/roll-ups, so, if increased comp participation is desirable, it's worth checking with swindles how comps could be changed to 'fit in' better. Otherwise, I'd question whether the membership simply don't want to put their handicap on the line so often - something they'll have to get used to when Slope is implemented!!

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Foxholer, we have a strokeplay comp every Sunday, it's not a monthly medal. I'm not saying rip all of this up but perhaps we need to throw in one a month that is a bit different. There are also more random comps on a Saturday so that may also be a good option to try them out. The traditionalists have to be looked after but if the next generation don't want the same then we have to adapt and cater for them.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Trying to get my head around the Slope system but this was particularly going through my head yesterday. My club had its Club Championship yesterday and also ran a comp for the higher h/c. Unfortunately they also put us on the same tees, some Blues as well as the regular whites. Add in no run from the heavy rain the day before and the heavy rain on the day and it became a bit of a slog. "How much nicer" I suggested to my PP on the 14th, "if we could have chosen to go off the yellows today"? As I trudged off up the fairway, head down, rain pouring my mind wandered to my club selection all day yesterday, driver, rescue, PW/Gap W. Every par 4 the same, throw in another rescue if I duffed the first one. I then mentally went through the course and realised that for my length the whole course would be better off the yellows. Sooooooooo

My understanding of Slope is that each tee, Blue, White, Yellow, Red, will get a rating. You can then play in the same comp off any of these tees but your score will be adjust accordingly. Is that correct?

Does your h/c change, ie one for yellows one for whites, or is it just the final score via CSS or whatever it will be called?

Has anyones course been rated yet and if so have you put the above into action?

If I have got the wrong end of the stick with this please be gentle

When the new handicap system comes in CSS disappears so the card will just be one of the 20 regardless of conditions. Obviously the nett position will vary depending on slope adjusted handicap.

 

[lukeysafc100]

Well I'm sorry but I think that is just plain daft and wrong! Just because you can't hit the ball that long shouldn't mean you get to have an advantage of a shorter course! And lets be fair - for the bigger hitters length it will be better for them off the short course also.
Its a competition and that is the reason why we have handicaps in the first place.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Ah, but the system takes that into account. That is the point. Works in different ways but in effect if I go off the whites with a h/c of 18 and the par / slope etc is 72 and I shoot 90 then I have shot 72. Go off the yellows and the same score will actually give me a total of say 75 (I'm making these figures up by the way, I know the numbers don't work like this but it makes it easier) The point is it adjusts to take the difference in difficulty into account.

We are not talking about using this on Club Championship days but in run of the mill comps it may encourage more people to take part. The alternative is that seniors start to drop out, shorter hitters don't enter and you are left with a small field. A small field means a smaller prize pot, less atmosphere in the bar after etc. No one wins there. This wont matter on short courses where distance is not a major issue, I recently played both Seaham and South Shields which you may also have played and I would not say it is a problem there for example, but on longer ones it may help.

 

[Foxholer]

Trying to get my head around the Slope system but this was particularly going through my head yesterday. My club had its Club Championship yesterday and also ran a comp for the higher h/c. Unfortunately they also put us on the same tees, some Blues as well as the regular whites. Add in no run from the heavy rain the day before and the heavy rain on the day and it became a bit of a slog. "How much nicer" I suggested to my PP on the 14th, "if we could have chosen to go off the yellows today"? As I trudged off up the fairway, head down, rain pouring my mind wandered to my club selection all day yesterday, driver, rescue, PW/Gap W. Every par 4 the same, throw in another rescue if I duffed the first one. I then mentally went through the course and realised that for my length the whole course would be better off the yellows. Sooooooooo

My understanding of Slope is that each tee, Blue, White, Yellow, Red, will get a rating. You can then play in the same comp off any of these tees but your score will be adjust accordingly. Is that correct?

Does your h/c change, ie one for yellows one for whites, or is it just the final score via CSS or whatever it will be called?

Has anyones course been rated yet and if so have you put the above into action?

If I have got the wrong end of the stick with this please be gentle

The Slope system - which I expect will be adopted gives you an 'Index'. This adjusts your basic handicap(Index) from the Course Rating (equivalent to SSS) according to the difficulty rating (the Slope) of the course, which varies depending on the tees used - and the current index.

To explain... The Slope system is based on the (statistically 'proven') assumption that Scratch players are statistically likely to play courses around SSS - or Rating. However, 18-cappers will most likely need additional 'help' as the course difficulty increases! And those between Scratch and 18 are statistically likely to need a linear adjustment between those 2 values! This is the basis of the term 'Slope' - which also extends further up the handicap levels.

Each set of Tees on any course has both a Rating and a Slope! And there is a standard calculation to determine what an individual's 'handicap' should be of a particular set of tees!

The method of calculating a particular player's 'Index' differs from the Congu style too, but that's a different issue.

Wrt to the lack of run...That's actually one of the areas where the Congu system (CSS) seems, to me, to be 'better' than Slope! There doesn't seem to be any additional allowance in Slope (that I can see) to adjust for the conditions on the day!