Should I have been penalised?

[Leftie]

.... For giving rules advice during a round?

It was one of the "old favourites".

On the 18th, John carved his tee shot right and it almost certainly went OOB but definitely in the deepest of the rubbish.

"I declare that lost" said John. "Playing a Titlest 3 provisional".

Before he played the shot I patiently explained that declaring a ball lost has no meaning, and why he shouldn't declare a provisional ball if he didn't want to run the risk of the original ball found in an unplayable position.

He then retracted his provisional ball statement and said "this is the ball now in play".

Was I wrong to give this advice??

He had earlier in the round fallen foul of another classic error. He took a free drop of a path, without marking nearest point of relief and measuring one club length etc, and ended up taking the shot with one foot still on the path. Whether the drop in that position gave him a better lie, I know not.

 

[Twire]

I would say you are OK to give rules advice, as it's in the public domain. But in match play, you could have done yourself out of wining the hole......it's best to tell them after the mistake.

 

[Leftie]

It was only a friendly Vets Stableford and he was nowhere near in contention.

Matchplay is a different ball game - so to speak.

 

[richart]

It was only a friendly Vets Stableford

I thought you were in the building trade Roger ?

Can't wait to be able to play in a Vets match.

 

[bigbazzaboy]

I thought you had a 5 minute 'search' window before you could declare a ball lost?

 

[CliveW]

Before he played the shot I patiently explained that declaring a ball lost has no meaning, and why he shouldn't declare a provisional ball if he didn't want to run the risk of the original ball found in an unplayable position.

Can you explain why he shouldn't play a provisional? Rule 27-2 states "If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1."

 

[JustOne]

If you want to look for your first ball then declare your second as a provisional. If you don't want to look for your first ball simply reload and hit another ball and it becomes the one in play.

 

[Imurg]

If you want to look for your first ball then declare your second as a provisional. If you don't want to look for your first ball simply reload and hit another ball and it becomes the one in play.

Because sometimes you really don't want to find your first ball....

 

[Matty]

It was his choice to play a provisional or put a second ball in play.

If your explanation of the rules simply allowed him to clarify his intention then I guess you can argue that it's not advice but if you influenced him in any way then it's advice and a breach of the rules.

R&A decision 8-1/16:

Q. B's ball was lying badly. B was deliberating what action to take when A, his fellow-competitor, said: “You have no shot at all. If I were you, I would declare the ball unplayable.” Was A giving advice, contrary to Rule 8-1?

A. Yes. A's suggestion could have influenced B “in determining his play”. Thus, it constituted advice – see Definition of “Advice”. It did not constitute “information on the Rules”, which is not advice.

 

[chrisd]

As I see it Leftie you did the right thing. You gave him his options per the rules as is allowed. You did not advise him what to do

as far as the path is concerned isn't he penalised for not taking full relief? You can't have any part of you, the club or ball still in the area you are taking relief from?


Chris

 

[viscount17]

I thought you had a 5 minute 'search' window before you could declare a ball lost?

no, you have 5 mins to search before you have to declare it lost. you can give up searching for it whenever you like, although your partners are not obliged to stop until you've put another ball into play.

I'm probably wrong, but I've always thought that this rule was brought in to speed up competition play not to encourage every Tom, Dick and Harry to waste 5 minutes searching for a ball that's vanished into waist deep bundoo.

 

[muttleee]

I thought you had a 5 minute 'search' window before you could declare a ball lost?

You can't just "declare" a ball lost.

 

[Dave1980]

you can not just declare a ball lost, but as soon as you have dropped another ball your first ball is deemed to be a lost ball and you second ball is now the ball in play

 

[Smiffy]

But as soon as you have dropped another ball your first ball is deemed to be a lost ball and you second ball is now the ball in play

Not until you've hit it it isn't

 

[Oddsocks]

id penalise you leftie,

 

[muttleee]

But as soon as you have dropped another ball your first ball is deemed to be a lost ball and you second ball is now the ball in play

Not until you've hit it it isn't

Not so fast....

Rule 20-4

"If the player’s ball in play has been lifted, it is again in play when dropped or placed.
A substituted ball becomes the ball in play when it has been dropped or placed. "

 

[viscount17]

But as soon as you have dropped another ball your first ball is deemed to be a lost ball and you second ball is now the ball in play

Not until you've hit it it isn't

Not so fast....

Rule 20-4

"If the player’s ball in play has been lifted, it is again in play when dropped or placed.
A substituted ball becomes the ball in play when it has been dropped or placed. "

not off the tee, you have to hit it

 

[Tommo21]

As said before, provisional balls are hit in case you think the ball could be lost outside a water hazard, like the rough, trees or you think it could be out of bounds.

Saying he retracted the original statement and saying this will be the ball in play is fine. Not the way I would do it, but not outside the rules.

 

[Leftie]

I must admit that my tongue was firmly in cheek when I posted this thread and, as usual, it was interesting to read the many different interpretations of the rules.