Should a pro teach the golfer or the method?

[Foxholer]

Small gradual changes over time for a better result IMO. Very few folk could rip an old phone book in half in one go but could do it over a bit of time by doing a few pages at a time

I heard that phrase used for something completely un sport related but think its very relevant in this subject.

I think there's something about how you eat an Elephant too - 1 bite at a time!

 

[HomerJSimpson]

This confuses me slightly Homer. I appreciate you want to get better, but from the sounds of it one day you had a good iron swing, and the next day at the range you didn't. What swing will you have in your lesson? Probably a bit different from both of those, in tiny ways.

It seems to me that unless you're v v good, somedays the timing just isn't there. Just gotta suck it up and hope it isn't the same next time. If it happens on every round then yeh it's an issue, but it doesn't sound like that!

I can kind of see where you are coming from and certainly tempo has been a big part of it. I've got the swing down from Mach 1 and a blur to something almost visible with the naked eye and naturally that gives me more time to put a decent swing on it. The biggest issues I have tends to a very quick demise into very poor fundamentals regarding posture and in particular a high left shoulder that has all sorts of implications. It's about keeping an eye on these and just nudging the changes I've made a little bit more.

I think sometimes having gone from hitting well to hitting it crap I try too hard (well I think that can be levied at my golf game full stop) and try to change things that don't need changing. I perhaps have to stop, suck it up as you say, and just go through a mental check list and trust all the work I've put in and keep it simple. The lesson tonight was a simple tweak in posture at address, slightly different swing path and bosh. So easy and yet something I struggled so hard to achieve yesterday and on the back nine Thursday (although that was also down to squeaky bum time)

 

[duncan mackie]

I think there's something about how you eat an Elephant too - 1 bite at a time!

in this context I don't think this is a good analogy

my reason for saying this is that in dealing with a player who has an established swing he will inevitably have implemented a whole load of sticking plasters to cover the effects of his swing faults/flaws etc

removing them one at a time and dealing with the negative consequences of each is exactly the painful process that results in the OP

in many ways this is why learning from well meaning comments from m8tes tends to fall down once a player has found some combination of actions that works (in however limited a fashion) for him.

I know (from reading his posts) that coach's earlier comment would mean dealing fully with the established breakdown element ie it may involve change A, that then requires changes B and C to deliver - but again so much depends on how far you want to go, in what time frame as well as any physical issues.

whilst you and I may see each 'bite' as an appropriate combination of changes some may see each change implemented as a bite....

 

[the_coach]

it's about the person standing in front of you first & foremost. about asking a series of questions so find out what they want, expect. often times it's about managing those expectations & putting them into a context that has to take into account a whole bunch of things. usually the whole 'bunch of things' is a good deal larger the higher up the index ladder.

health.
past injuries.
physical abilities/limitations
are they new to the game or have they been involved with trying to learn to play over a good length of time.
what understanding there already is in what a golf swing is. many folk have no clear idea what that really is, or what they really do when they stand up to hit a ball.
what if anything do they consider their strengths in the game & their weaknesses.
what realistic time is going to be available for practice. do they realize they will have to practice between lessons are they prepared to make that commitment.
how often they are going to be able to get out & play.
managing expectations. often times that means helping folks simply understand that to improve if that's their true goal to whatever level it will entail change/s
re-defining goals within reasonable expectations often the goals are just to hit it better more often, hit the driver further. stop hitting it left to right.
(all depends on the standard you start out dealing with - the approach changes a whole heap but whether from 2 to a goal of scratch prior say to college application, or index over 20 wanting to get to bogey golf it's dealing with the best ways of moving folks from the plateau they are stuck on)

each person is different as is their situation. but it all goes back to what's happening at impact so what happens to the ball - then taking account of all of the above etc. finding the best ways to improve that.
first encounters often times just simply about set-up.

 

[Foxholer]

in this context I don't think this is a good analogy

my reason for saying this is that in dealing with a player who has an established swing he will inevitably have implemented a whole load of sticking plasters to cover the effects of his swing faults/flaws etc

removing them one at a time and dealing with the negative consequences of each is exactly the painful process that results in the OP

in many ways this is why learning from well meaning comments from m8tes tends to fall down once a player has found some combination of actions that works (in however limited a fashion) for him.

I know (from reading his posts) that coach's earlier comment would mean dealing fully with the established breakdown element ie it may involve change A, that then requires changes B and C to deliver - but again so much depends on how far you want to go, in what time frame as well as any physical issues.

whilst you and I may see each 'bite' as an appropriate combination of changes some may see each change implemented as a bite....

You are reading far too much into my comment - which was purely a reply to Val's 'ripping a phonebook' one!

But I agree with what you are saying. I believe the key thing is for the student/customer and the Pro/Seller to agree with what is going to be required/provided and the likely cost - in money and time - in order for it to be achieved. It's actually not all that different from the approach and estimates that a builder might provide for specific work! Though, in spite of the 'professional' vs 'tradesman' image, the builder is much more likely to actually achieve the specific target at the quoted price! That's mainly because of the customer's intimacy with the process!

 

[Spear-Chucker]

it's about the person standing in front of you first & foremost. about asking a series of questions so find out what they want, expect. often times it's about managing those expectations & putting them into a context that has to take into account a whole bunch of things. usually the whole 'bunch of things' is a good deal larger the higher up the index ladder.

health.
past injuries.
physical abilities/limitations
are they new to the game or have they been involved with trying to learn to play over a good length of time.
what understanding there already is in what a golf swing is. many folk have no clear idea what that really is, or what they really do when they stand up to hit a ball.
what if anything do they consider their strengths in the game & their weaknesses.
what realistic time is going to be available for practice. do they realize they will have to practice between lessons are they prepared to make that commitment.
how often they are going to be able to get out & play.
managing expectations. often times that means helping folks simply understand that to improve if that's their true goal to whatever level it will entail change/s
re-defining goals within reasonable expectations often the goals are just to hit it better more often, hit the driver further. stop hitting it left to right.
(all depends on the standard you start out dealing with - the approach changes a whole heap but whether from 2 to a goal of scratch prior say to college application, or index over 20 wanting to get to bogey golf it's dealing with the best ways of moving folks from the plateau they are stuck on)

each person is different as is their situation. but it all goes back to what's happening at impact so what happens to the ball - then taking account of all of the above etc. finding the best ways to improve that.
first encounters often times just simply about set-up.

Cool post.

 

[Wayman]

Who was the pro you went to see Bill?

Has he improved your game

 

[BoadieBroadus]

it depends on what the golfer brings to begin with.

i played a little bit as a younger boy (10-14) but took the game up again at 30. I had a decent ability to apply clubface to ball but my swing was way inside with a break of the wrists and then completely over the top and chicken winging to avoid burying the club 3 feet into the ground.

i could hit the ball but i don't think i could have progressed past 16 hcap playing like that, it was just too difficult to hit a club longer than 6 iron.

so i had to be taught some kind of method, because my natural instinct was unusable longer term.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Who was the pro you went to see Bill?

Has he improved your game

The senior one at the Sunderland range, without mentioning any names. Yes, he's improved my posture & swingpath and got me clearing my hips but I just can't, don't want to, do the early wrist setting. I'm much straighter when I don't do it & don't lose any distance. I've got one lesson left & I'm going to take "Play Better Golf", " The Plane Truth" & "The Impact Zone" and ask why the first advocates a late wrist set, the second doesn't mention it at all & the third recommended what he teaches.

Modelling my swing on Miguel's, even ordered some Rioja & cigars!

 

[bobmac]

An early wrist hinge promotes a steeper angle of attack....short irons and wedges
A late wrist would suit fairway woods/driver

 

[Jensen]

When I've watched Pros swing analysed on YouTube, a point I've noticed highlighted in the takeaway is how they keep the clubhead outside the hands. There is no roll of the wrists with the clubhead going behind the arms.
Other analysed swings talk about using the bigger muscles, particularly relevant in the one plane swing.
I've found the following drill useful, by Stacy Maple, to get the right feeling.

http://youtu.be/u8CUum7QDSk

He's certified alright.......seriously very useful.

 

[duncan mackie]

When I've watched Pros swing analysed on YouTube, a point I've noticed highlighted in the takeaway is how they keep the clubhead outside the hands. There is no roll of the wrists with the clubhead going behind the arms. ....

aka fanning the clubface

excellent prelude to many unmentionable swing issues

 

[Maninblack4612]

An early wrist hinge promotes a steeper angle of attack....short irons and wedges
A late wrist would suit fairway woods/driver

Interesting that. My driving is very much my strength & the short game is the weakest part of my game. I like to use the same swing for all the shots and the early wrist set just leaves me not knowing where the clubhead is going.