Should a pro teach the golfer or the method?

Maninblack4612

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I've had a few teachers in my time but can say, in all honesty, I've learned more from reading books, the two most significant being "Play Better Golf" by John Jacobs, which I first read in the 1970s and still refer to and "The Plane Truth" by Jim Hardy, the only book I've found that explains the difference between the swings of, for example, Colin Montgomerie & Matt Kuchar, who look as if they are playing a different game.

Anyway, at Xmas, I won a couple of lessons at my local range with an experienced pro with a good reputation. At the first lesson I gave him my "natural" swing, flat, on the inside, with little wrist hinge. He immediately identified the major faults and, for the next 5 lessons (I paid for some more!) we worked almost exclusively on the takeaway, incorporating an early setting of the wrists, which felt very unnatural & uncomfortable. I have to say that the backswing looked better but results, in spite of lot of practice, have been very inconsistent.

Looking at pros who swing like me, I examined a YouTube clip of Jiminez, who swings the club flat & very much around his body. With some effort I managed to freeze the video at the point where the club is parallel to the ground. At this point, Jiminez's wrists are not set at all whereas my wrists, at that point, following the advice I've been given, are just about fully cocked.

I went out onto the course and swung as near as I could to the way I observed Jiminez, trying to keep the swing wide & not inside the line. The result was that I was hitting it straighter & more solidly than I have for a while.

Talking to some others who have had lessons from this pro it appears that he teaches everyone the same moves, as if this was the only way it is possible to swing the club. My own view is that the nearer you can stay to a person's natural swing the better and that, for amateurs, especially old ones like me, wholesale changes are impossible to implement. I was playing quite well before I embarked on the lessons & think I'll go back to the book learning since I am well aware of my major swing faults.

Has anyone else experienced a coach who appeared to be trying to create a clone of himself rather than teach the student? There are more ways to swing the club than one, I'm convinced of it, and very few teachers who can adapt & existing swing rather then tear it part & rebuild it.
 
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Yep!

There is a guy who teaches at the range I use, he only teaches one swing. I had one lesson with him, some good stuff but not really for me.

I'm a firm believer in making the best of a person's natural swing as under pressure, that is what they will always revert back to.
 

Lord Tyrion

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There used to be pro up near to me who taught everyone the same swing, something to do with A, B and C, points of your swing I believe. Bad coaching I'm afraid. I have done some cricket coaching in my time and it is important to accept that people have their own method and you need to work with that. There may be a perfect action, for cricket look up Dennis Lillee or Richard Hadlee, for golf maybe Ernie Els, but there are plenty of other actions/swings that work. The coach is supposed to analyse the pupil and work with them. You refine and improve the natural movements, you don't take them completely apart. The only exception would be someone who is an absolute beginner and you then get a chance to mould them, within reason. Can you imagine your pro working with Jim Furyk, Bubba Watson etc. I could give even more examples of top cricketers with imperfect technique but the end result meant that coaching would only have been about refinement and touch rather than a style breakdown.

I've had lessons with a couple of local pro's up here and both were happy to work with the restrictions of my swing, flexibility etc and improve where they could, not wipe the slate and start from scratch.
 
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Fyldewhite

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I'm self taught from a few books as a teenager and have just worked with what I have in terms of my "natural" swing. I didn't play seriously until I was 30 so any bad habits (eg my very strong grip) were well ingrained but just stuck at it and haven't done too bad. I've never had a lesson and have no desire to spend hours on a practice ground with a "rebuilt swing". If I ever did go down that road though, I'd certainly want a teacher to work with what I have and not change it....would be more interested in tempo, drills etc than swing mechanics.
 
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Always the golfer. I'm slightly laid off at the top. It's a characteristic...so it has been left alone, and we deal with it. Who cares what it looks like, as long as it is repeatable
 

One Planer

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Yep!

There is a guy who teaches at the range I use, he only teaches one swing. I had one lesson with him, some good stuff but not really for me.

I'm a firm believer in making the best of a person's natural swing as under pressure, that is what they will always revert back to.

My story is a little different, but I do disagree slightly.

My swing as was, had me stuck around the 19 handicap mark. That was as good as that swing would ever get me.

Since having lessons with my pro, I've changed a heck of a lot of things from my natural swing to fit what he teaches.

The net result (... After a lot of hard work), is that my swing a massively more consistent and, as a result, my swing is now much more consistent than my old swing could have ever been.

While I agree that while you could make the best of a persons natural swing, if it's riddled with flaws any changes made could, possibly, make it worse.
 

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My story is a little different, but I do disagree slightly.

My swing as was, had me stuck around the 19 handicap mark. That was as good as that swing would ever get me.

Since having lessons with my pro, I've changed a heck of a lot of things from my natural swing to fit what he teaches.

The net result (... After a lot of hard work), is that my swing a massively more consistent and, as a result, my swing is now much more consistent than my old swing could have ever been.

While I agree that while you could make the best of a persons natural swing, if it's riddled with flaws any changes made could, possibly, make it worse.

That's pretty cool, so it has worked! Did it make a big difference to your handicap?
 

Piece

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Mainly teaching the golfer, supported by the method I believe. At the end of the day, its about what you do at impact consistently. Weigh up what the golfer can/can't do with their swing, then teach parts of the classic method that the pro thinks will best help.
 

Jensen

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Without doubt the pro should teach the golfer not his set method. The problem is a lot of so called teaching pros will teach the method they use. They are either NOT technically minded enough to realise, have no desire/interest to improve their portfolio or have become lazy/disinterested.
My natural swing is a one plane swing, but every teaching pro I saw was a two plane teacher with none of them identifying and modifying anything to suit my natural movements. It's no wonder that I was always treading water without making any improvement.
The best book that I have read is Plane Truth by Jim Hardy. When I read this it was a real lightbulb moment and cannot recommend it enough, it has become my mantra.
Jim Hardy EVEN states in his book that you may not have improved through no fault of you own because you have not been shown the correct method.
I find it extremely FRIGHTENING and WORRYING that these so called professionals are totally unaware of the difference between a one plane swing and a two plane swing.
I have actually witnessed the blank expression on teaching pros when I have mentioned one plane swing and two plane swing :rolleyes:
 

Foxholer

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Without doubt the pro should teach the golfer not his set method. The problem is a lot of so called teaching pros will teach the method they use. They are either NOT technically minded enough to realise, have no desire/interest to improve their portfolio or have become lazy/disinterested.
My natural swing is a one plane swing, but every teaching pro I saw was a two plane teacher with none of them identifying and modifying anything to suit my natural movements. It's no wonder that I was always treading water without making any improvement.
The best book that I have read is Plane Truth by Jim Hardy. When I read this it was a real lightbulb moment and cannot recommend it enough, it has become my mantra.
Jim Hardy EVEN states in his book that you may not have improved through no fault of you own because you have not been shown the correct method.
I find it extremely FRIGHTENING and WORRYING that these so called professionals are totally unaware of the difference between a one plane swing and a two plane swing.
I have actually witnessed the blank expression on teaching pros when I have mentioned one plane swing and two plane swing :rolleyes:

Indeed, this is a dangerous trap that some Pros can fall into - they acquire their qualification, do their 'apprenticeship', establish themselves at a club and that's as far as their 'development' goes. Others find their niche with the latest - at the particular time - method and never teach anything else.

In many ways, the 'quick fix' Pro is actually a better one than either of the above. He or She has to assess a swing and determine what the best adjustment to make is - without too much alteration of the player's natural pattern. S/He may suggest further changes that would be beneficial, but many - probably most - golfers only go to a Pro when they have a problem. And if the fix works, then the next visit to the Pro is when the next (or same) problem occurs!

The really good ones, imo, are those that discuss upfront - or after the assessment - the approach they deem best and agree it with the player, rather than dictate or simply do it. That's actually my issue with those that teach (only) the 1-plane swing (1PS) - if the 2PS student doesn't realise s/he is going to be converted, it can be a wasteful exercise, both from the cost and success points of view.

And keeping up with 'developments' is essential for any professional, so Golf Pros should continue their own training by making themselves aware of recent trends, even if they decide that, in most of their student's cases, the particular innovation is not appropriate!
 

duncan mackie

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agree with Foxy

1. it's some not all
2. if you have never played before then there's a PGA approved teaching approach; I would expect all PGA pros to start with that unless there are physical attributes to the pupil that suggest an alternative approach
3. If you have played before you need to be absolutely clear (and even harder for most I have watched go though this - absolutely honest with yourself) as to what the parameters of change are. The better the pro the more clarity will exist in your joint objectives and, the better they will be able to deliver to individual needs.
4. delivery to individual needs does require more experience; and to put it bluntly, those with the greatest competence in this area are going to command a significantly higher price (and are increasingly set up in their own academy with lots of expensive equipment to fund.

On a personal note I know that I can score better than my current handicap using a v restricted repetitive swing, but that I would be limited with that approach to a level I do not (yet) accept (shades of 4612's swing explanation). I am, however, flogging a dead horse in trying to put a level of power into my swing that my body simply can't control at all times - but I enjoy it and, sometimes, I can dodge expensive mistakes for sufficient holes in a row to look really good.......unfortunately all the pros that I know well (we have 4 at the club and I was previously taught by 2 at the local range I still pop into) agree with this analysis; they can save me a shot here and there but I have to fundamentally decide how I wish to approach the game for as long as I am able to play. They don't have the magic wand I would like (and neither does my osteopath!)

The underlying issue represented in this thread, and similar, is that few Pros are going to look at your swing and suggest/agree that they can't do anything for you; and few golfers are able to understand the full/potential implications of making changes once they have ingrained anything (classic being a strong grip - especially right thumb behind the shaft)
 

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I'd say thats the sign of a pretty effective change!

How much work did it take, out of interest? To remodel a swing sounds intense.

So far, 18 months.

I won't lie, the initial changes were very, very hard and everything felt wrong.

I've kept at it thought.

Even though most early rounds were dross, there were 2 or 3 shots every round that told me I was on the right track. That kept me coming back.

It's taken time, which I knew it would, but I'm not finished yet as there are more improvements to be had for sure.
 

dejf

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To the original question - I would prefer the method. But only the method that fits me.

I would appreciate to be told that there are other methods and that if I want I could make a choice.
So, my ideal teacher would be the one who knows many styles and can explain differences between them and together we would pick up the right one for me.
Then ... the method.
 

HomerJSimpson

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I've had the odd lesson in my time :whistle: With every pro I have been taught a swing to suit me. The swing I have now still has some foibles and will never be textbook but the guy I use works around these to a degree and has given me something relatively robust these days. I could change everything and work on getting rid of the other faults but while they aren't causing any major issues and he's happy then I'll just tweak it here and there (like tonight to find out what happened to my irons at the range) and leave it alone for the season. Once the clocks change the emphasis switches almost entirely to the short game
 

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I've had the odd lesson in my time :whistle: With every pro I have been taught a swing to suit me. The swing I have now still has some foibles and will never be textbook but the guy I use works around these to a degree and has given me something relatively robust these days. I could change everything and work on getting rid of the other faults but while they aren't causing any major issues and he's happy then I'll just tweak it here and there (like tonight to find out what happened to my irons at the range) and leave it alone for the season. Once the clocks change the emphasis switches almost entirely to the short game

This confuses me slightly Homer. I appreciate you want to get better, but from the sounds of it one day you had a good iron swing, and the next day at the range you didn't. What swing will you have in your lesson? Probably a bit different from both of those, in tiny ways.

It seems to me that unless you're v v good, somedays the timing just isn't there. Just gotta suck it up and hope it isn't the same next time. If it happens on every round then yeh it's an issue, but it doesn't sound like that!
 

the_coach

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start looking at what the first break down in the set-up/motion is, that is leading to the issues the player is having with finding a degree of consistency with good sound impact conditions.
 

Val

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Small gradual changes over time for a better result IMO. Very few folk could rip an old phone book in half in one go but could do it over a bit of time by doing a few pages at a time ;)

I heard that phrase used for something completely un sport related but think its very relevant in this subject.
 
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