Shaft Torque. What does it all mean?

[seochris]

Does anybody know what this actually means and how it affects shaft performance? :mmm:

So what are the attributes of a shaft with high torque verses a lower torque? Higher or lower ball flight, more or less difficult to hit what, swing speed dependent?

So many manufacturers quote it with the weight but not much is explained about how it affects the performance.

 

[Ethan]

Tongue is the rotation of the shaft. When you swing it, the forces on the shaft tend to open the face because more of the weight of the head is outside the vertical axis of the shaft, so acts as a lever. A shaft with low torque will have less of this. Some golfers who close the face during their swing need more torque or the will hit the ball with a face that is too closed. Others don't. Generally speaking, torque roughly correlates with shaft stiffness, so very stiff shafts torque less. Most players need a bit of torque in the shaft. If you are hard hitter with an aggressive move through the ball, you don't want much as your move through the ball opens the face a bit itself. If you are Mr Average, you need more, as your move through the ball doesn't open it much. Generally, torque only applies to graphite shafts, as steel shafts don't really have any worth talking about.

It is some way down the list of fitting attributes though, and although I know my swing speed, spin rates, launch angles and so on, I never bother looking at torque, although on one occasion, I was fitted into a certain shaft because the higher torque offset my tendency to close the face.

 

[seochris]

Tongue is the rotation of the shaft. When you swing it, the forces on the shaft tend to open the face because more of the weight of the head is outside the vertical axis of the shaft, so acts as a lever. A shaft with low torque will have less of this. Some golfers who close the face during their swing need more torque or the will hit the ball with a face that is too closed. Others don't. Generally speaking, torque roughly correlates with shaft stiffness, so very stiff shafts torque less. Most players need a bit of torque in the shaft. If you are hard hitter with an aggressive move through the ball, you don't want much as your move through the ball opens the face a bit itself. If you are Mr Average, you need more, as your move through the ball doesn't open it much. Generally, torque only applies to graphite shafts, as steel shafts don't really have any worth talking about.

It is some way down the list of fitting attributes though, and although I know my swing speed, spin rates, launch angles and so on, I never bother looking at torque, although on one occasion, I was fitted into a certain shaft because the higher torque offset my tendency to close the face.

Thanks Ethan....so does that mean the lower the torque value the less it "twists"?

 

[One Planer]

Tongue is the rotation of the shaft. When you swing it, the forces on the shaft tend to open the face because more of the weight of the head is outside the vertical axis of the shaft, so acts as a lever. A shaft with low torque will have less of this. Some golfers who close the face during their swing need more torque or the will hit the ball with a face that is too closed. Others don't. Generally speaking, torque roughly correlates with shaft stiffness, so very stiff shafts torque less. Most players need a bit of torque in the shaft. If you are hard hitter with an aggressive move through the ball, you don't want much as your move through the ball opens the face a bit itself. If you are Mr Average, you need more, as your move through the ball doesn't open it much. Generally, torque only applies to graphite shafts, as steel shafts don't really have any worth talking about.

It is some way down the list of fitting attributes though, and although I know my swing speed, spin rates, launch angles and so on, I never bother looking at torque, although on one occasion, I was fitted into a certain shaft because the higher torque offset my tendency to close the face.

That's interesting Ethan.

I've always thought it was the other way around where a higher torque shafts have the face pointing more left at impact?

I was also under the impression that torque had an effect on the feeling of a shaft (Boardy vs whippy).

 

[Oddsocks]

That's interesting Ethan.

I've always thought it was the other way around where a higher torque shafts have the face pointing more left at impact?

I was also under the impression that torque had an effect on the feeling of a shaft (Boardy vs whippy).

Interested in the response as I have a speeder 565 and 661 both in stiff. The 661 although heavier feels softer.

 

[Ethan]

That's interesting Ethan.

I've always thought it was the other way around where a higher torque shafts have the face pointing more left at impact?

I was also under the impression that torque had an effect on the feeling of a shaft (Boardy vs whippy).

Low torque dies give a feeling of boardiness. Feel is strange and rather subjective though. Butt stiffness can give the same feeling, for example in Project X shafts.

I was fitted for a driver courtesy of GM at Titleist. I was hitting flat hooks and knew I tended to close the face. The fitter told me that lie torque shafts provided no help but shafts with medium torque allowed the face to remain more open and reduce the impact of my handsy swing. If you look down the shaft, most of the head is outside the shaft plane. If you then swing that shaft the weight of that head will try to twist the shaft open. no doubt some players with string hand action could flip that over and get a whip crack of the head but probably not the ordinary amateur.

 

[One Planer]

Low torque dies give a feeling of boardiness. Feel is strange and rather subjective though. Butt stiffness can give the same feeling, for example in Project X shafts.

I was fitted for a driver courtesy of GM at Titleist. I was hitting flat hooks and knew I tended to close the face. The fitter told me that lie torque shafts provided no help but shafts with medium torque allowed the face to remain more open and reduce the impact of my handsy swing. If you look down the shaft, most of the head is outside the shaft plane. If you then swing that shaft the weight of that head will try to twist the shaft open. no doubt some players with string hand action could flip that over and get a whip crack of the head but probably not the ordinary amateur.

Torque is basically torsional stiffness then?

When the club is swung, the head twists around the shaft. The toe opens as you start your downswing, then it closes and returns to its normal position at impact. The variance between this is the torque factor (°)?

Tom Wishon make a few good points:

First of all, the way that shaft torsional stiffness works is like this - because the shaft is installed at the heel end of the clubhead, all that mass of the clubhead sits out there in front of the shaft. That means it is possible for the golfer to exert such force on the club on the downswing that he causes the clubhead to apply torque to the shaft and POSSIBLY CAUSE THE SHAFT TO TWIST ON THE DOWNSWING.

When the golfer starts the downswing, his immediate acceleration of the club causes the mass of the clubhead to begin to twist the shaft. How much of course depends on the golfer's transition force to start the downswing versus the torsional stiffness design of the shaft (AKA how low the degrees of "torque" of the shaft). If the golfer's force is well above the ability of the shaft's torsional stiffness to resist that force, the shaft can twist immediately back and then immediately forward in a slingshot type manner. In this case the clubface comes to the ball shut and the ball flies in a low duck hook.

You really never see a slice caused by the torque of the shaft being too low for the golfer's transition force because the action of torque on the shaft is such an immediate twisting action of rotationally back and then forward. THIS IS THE PERFORMANCE ELEMENT OF SHAFT TORQUE.

What you have experienced and what the others have correctly posted is the FEEL ELEMENT OF THE SHAFT TORQUE. It is true when the torque of the shaft is much too low for the golfer's downswing force, the shaft won't twist back and forward much at all - and this results in the vibration of impact with the clubhead and ball being transmitted back up the shaft to the golfer in a manner that the golfer perceives the feeling that the shaft is very stiff and dead feeling or boardy feeling.

The bit on bold is what stood out to me initially.

I'm guessing TW relates a powerful swing aligned against a high torque shaft?

This lead to my comment regarding the face pointing more left at address.

Like most things in Golf, there are many variables.

 

[the_coach]

shaft torque is just measured in degrees - how many degrees a shaft will twist under an amount of force. so numbers as a norm would be as low as 2º to up to 7º.
but as with shaft flex there's no real definite or standard ways to measure it.

torque though really is a major part of how a shaft 'feels' given the individual golfers swing speed, shaft load characteristics etc.
given the forces put under load on a shaft would be possible to have an X-shift shaft that could feeel smooth to maybes even 'flexy/whippy if it had a high torque number.
or you could get a less stiff shaft say reg or senior with a low torque number that could well 'feel' boardy or 'flat' some.

as well as feel the torque number will play a pretty major impact on 'where' the ball ends up (along with the impact conditions) as say a shaft with a high torque number can lead to a club face that's pointing a bunch further left (rh golfer) at impact than a lower torque shaft would be given the same swing motion.

so generally the fitters conventional wisdom in relation to torque has just 2 kinda 'rules'.

folks who tend to 'hook' the ball would tend to benefit from a lower torque shaft and folks who 'slice' the ball would benefit from a higher torque shaft.

players who swing faster would tend to benefit from a lower torque shaft - this is almost always a 'build into' by shaft manufacturers - so with most shafts as a general rule the 'x' will have lower torque numbers than a 's-flex' which is lower than a 'r-flex' etc.

to test torque folks would have a number of shafts where the weight and flex and the attached club head was the same but with different torque numbers and a fitter would have to block out the numbers to have some kind of a 'blind' test to both 'feel' and then monitor the resulting impact conditions and shot results on a LM. but as ever most depends on the idiosyncrasies of folks individual swing motions and their reactions to 'feel'.

folks will likely find if able to do this that it 'can' pretty marked in one way or another, how much difference the torque of a shaft has in both 'feel' through the swing motion and also the difference it makes overall to impact conditions and shot outcomes.

a good number of folks are generally likely to find both their own 'sweetspot feel' and overall better results can be found with a 'middling' torque number, as often times torque numbers to either extremes can prove more difficult to give any real consistency, as these shaft to each 'extreme' either require always 'working' hard or always a very smooth delivery.
so low torque can prove difficult as the round progresses and folks tire especially if during the 'fit' they have 'swung' out of their shoes for a limited time rather than 'swung' at the 75%/80% effort they are more likely to swing at out in the 'real world' on the golf course day to day. way too many folks try to 'beat' sequential CHS numbers through a fit.

so in the end it's for sure just further validation that folks really are a deal better off if they have their clubs fitted 'well' on a LM.
shows that 'feel' is a good ways important to best results but those results have to be measured on a launch monitor to be able to have direct evidence of the best results and not just fall foul of 'feel to real' decisions through just 'looking' at shots hit with no data to quantify the shot outcomes.

 

[One Planer]

shaft torque is just measured in degrees - how many degrees a shaft will twist under an amount of force. so numbers as a norm would be as low as 2º to up to 7º.
but as with shaft flex there's no real definite or standard ways to measure it.

torque though really is a major part of how a shaft 'feels' given the individual golfers swing speed, shaft load characteristics etc.
given the forces put under load on a shaft would be possible to have an X-shift shaft that could feeel smooth to maybes even 'flexy/whippy if it had a high torque number.
or you could get a less stiff shaft say reg or senior with a low torque number that could well 'feel' boardy or 'flat' some.

as well as feel the torque number will play a pretty major impact on 'where' the ball ends up (along with the impact conditions) as say a shaft with a high torque number can lead to a club face that's pointing a bunch further left (rh golfer) at impact than a lower torque shaft would be given the same swing motion.

so generally the fitters conventional wisdom in relation to torque has just 2 kinda 'rules'.

folks who tend to 'hook' the ball would tend to benefit from a lower torque shaft and folks who 'slice' the ball would benefit from a higher torque shaft.

players who swing faster would tend to benefit from a lower torque shaft - this is almost always a 'build into' by shaft manufacturers - so with most shafts as a general rule the 'x' will have lower torque numbers than a 's-flex' which is lower than a 'r-flex' etc.

to test torque folks would have a number of shafts where the weight and flex and the attached club head was the same but with different torque numbers and a fitter would have to block out the numbers to have some kind of a 'blind' test to both 'feel' and then monitor the resulting impact conditions and shot results on a LM. but as ever most depends on the idiosyncrasies of folks individual swing motions and their reactions to 'feel'.

folks will likely find if able to do this that it 'can' pretty marked in one way or another, how much difference the torque of a shaft has in both 'feel' through the swing motion and also the difference it makes overall to impact conditions and shot outcomes.

a good number of folks are generally likely to find both their own 'sweetspot feel' and overall better results can be found with a 'middling' torque number, as often times torque numbers to either extremes can prove more difficult to give any real consistency, as these shaft to each 'extreme' either require always 'working' hard or always a very smooth delivery.
so low torque can prove difficult as the round progresses and folks tire especially if during the 'fit' they have 'swung' out of their shoes for a limited time rather than 'swung' at the 75%/80% effort they are more likely to swing at out in the 'real world' on the golf course day to day. way too many folks try to 'beat' sequential CHS numbers through a fit.

so in the end it's for sure just further validation that folks really are a deal better off if they have their clubs fitted 'well' on a LM.
shows that 'feel' is a good ways important to best results but those results have to be measured on a launch monitor to be able to have direct evidence of the best results and not just fall foul of 'feel to real' decisions through just 'looking' at shots hit with no data to quantify the shot outcomes.

Re: The bit in bold.

I'm guessing this is in relation to how the torque affects face against the path?

Toe more open for a hooker, more closed for a slicer?