Scotland Debate

[Slab]

Totally agree :clap: You must be mad to follow this plonker into what clearly is the unknown. He is far from impressive, chrasmatic or even slightly credible. I don't understand why or what this fine nation of people see in this fat rather poisoned excuse of a man? Ive worked and fought with some fine jocks (Scots Guards, Black Watch, Southern Highlanders etc etc ) in the past and surely they know better than to follow some gimic of a man over a cliff?!! You would say good bye to all that loyal military history as well! There is a massive connection up there and I hope they see sense and tick the no box.

As a rather intelligent, clued up and pragmatic Scottish lady put it on the radio yesterday " People seem to think that jumping onto Salmond's merry band wagon is good for their future but the trouble is.... he has no idea where its going!!??"

Think very carefully Scotland before voting yes just to pish Cameron and the Tories off... They will have been and gone before you know it.... but you'd be giving up on a Union that's been around for centuries and there's no going back!

So Cameron and the tories gone soon enough but you suggest Salmond is immortal!

I think you overestimate his powers

Also, not sure how you say goodbye to military history either. Regardless of the vote the history still happened!

 

[Beezerk]

Independence means self determination of the decisions and policies, including setting/creating alliances, memberships and partnerships whether that's with a bank, another nation or as part of an international community

For you maybe but in a nutshell these are just a few of the reasons I've been given recently for people voting Yes, obviously I'm paraphrasing slightly... We have the oil which will make us all rich. We will get a fairer society so the poorer will get richer, rich get poorer. I hate the English. I hate Westiminster. Some English toff on tv was slagging off my home town saying it is a meaningless little hole. More jobs will be created in Scotland. The standard of living will rise for everyone. I hate the Tory toffs... Sounds like perfectly reasonable thinking to me lol. These are from your average low wage worker in the factories around Scotland who I imagine make up a high percentage of voters. Gawd help you all.

 

[CMAC]

I hope all you YES campaigners are proud of yourselves... https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/bae-indicate-shipyard-closure-event-scottish-yes-vote/

theres still time to waken up from your unicorn and fairy story

 

[Beezerk]

I'd also like to add, the slagging off of the 3 main leaders visiting Scotland recently shows just how stubborn and blinkered the Yes campaigners are. "Too little too late" is all I'm hearing despite being given the olive branch and potentially more powers to control Scotland. They sound more like a rabble rousing Union leaders who takes the workers out on strike the more I listen to them.

 

[Slab]

For you maybe but in a nutshell these are just a few of the reasons I've been given recently for people voting Yes, obviously I'm paraphrasing slightly... We have the oil which will make us all rich. We will get a fairer society so the poorer will get richer, rich get poorer. I hate the English. I hate Westiminster. Some English toff on tv was slagging off my home town saying it is a meaningless little hole. More jobs will be created in Scotland. The standard of living will rise for everyone. I hate the Tory toffs... Sounds like perfectly reasonable thinking to me lol. These are from your average low wage worker in the factories around Scotland who I imagine make up a high percentage of voters. Gawd help you all.

Yup, both sides have their own Kermits & Gonzos

My point though was to dispel the myth that being independent somehow means work with no one, talk to no one, pull in the drawbridge, we have to be self-sufficient now... as indicated by phrases like How can you be independent if you still want xyz

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

as indicated by phrases like How can you be independent if you still want xyz

Because the things you want aren't just normal things any country can expect. You're wanting to cherry pick on the ideal bits for you, and expect rUK to fall in to line and give you what you want.

So Cameron and the tories gone soon enough but you suggest Salmond is immortal!

Salmond isn't immortal, but if people follow him blindly into independence, that is (for the foreseeable anyway).

Indeed, for now.

So no currency union if we vote yes but devo max of we vote no. The contradictions of love/hate coming from BT is astonishing.

Pretty much your standard carrot and stick. Would be silly to promise them good things if they vote YES, and bad things if they vote NO.

Again though, stop focusing on BT, and start telling us actually about what YES means, and how it will resolve all of the issues that are being ignored. How will it cope without a CU? What to do about the Businesses leaving? All the things that have been brought up, and the YES vote has focused on the form, not the substance.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

I hope all you YES campaigners are proud of yourselves... https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/bae-indicate-shipyard-closure-event-scottish-yes-vote/

theres still time to waken up from your unicorn and fairy story

That's from May? It's been established that both the type 26 ships and Prince of Wale swill be built in Scotland, irrespective of tomorrows vote.They can't be built anywhere else in The UK.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Indeed, for now.

So no currency union if we vote yes but devo max of we vote no. The contradictions of love/hate coming from BT is astonishing.

So you saying NO plus Devo-max brings 'chaos' for England, Wales and NI; YES plus CU is hardly going to be worse for England, Wales and NI.

Yet Westminster say Devo-max is NO problem; CU is YES problem

 

[mikee247]

So Cameron and the tories gone soon enough but you suggest Salmond is immortal!

I think you overestimate his powers

Also, not sure how you say goodbye to military history either. Regardless of the vote the history still happened!

Unbelievably he thinks he's immortal but he'll soon be dead or at the very least proved pointless if he looses tomorrow.

I agree its in the past and done but its a fine history made mostly from being part of a group of nations that have defended and protected others and these fine Islands together. You'd be giving that all up....for ever and I mean completely because Regiments will be disbanded and that history will be forgotten and lost, people will loose jobs, a lot of them and there will be no money for a decent defence so some dads army set up will happen...... Good enough for NATO?? Not to mention the economic disaster elsewhere when you cant agree on a currency or get into Europe, so export and import issues arise and when all the prices go up in the shops and the big company's move out and then there the issue of oil boundary's comes in and you realise that the massive issue of benefits cant be sustained....and lets not mention healthcare... it goes on and on. All this just to spite politicians prove a point and think that Salmond is going to be your saviour!! Id be all for it if he had an ounce of credibility and actually a plan for all this but he doesn't. You cant ignore this as its a fact! Well not one the average man on the street is going to see. The new Scottish messiah!! Oh please, Id rather see Rab c Nesbit run the country! Please dont be daft guys....

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Again though, stop focusing on BT, and start telling us actually about what YES means, and how it will resolve all of the issues that are being ignored. How will it cope without a CU? What to do about the Businesses leaving? All the things that have been brought up, and the YES vote has focused on the form, not the substance.

I've honestly done that loads on here, but appreciate things can be lost in the threads I've done it on.

So, no CU. I'm confident it will happen, Carney has been at pains to confirm all the correct economic parameters are in place, only political will.To stress, all the economic parameters required for a CU, according to Mark Carney of the BoE are in place.Only politicians are refusing this, and only they can tell you why.

But OK, no CU.Scotland can either use the £ floating,apply to use Euro ( anyone think, given the state of euro, we'd be refused? Me neither.) or set up a new currency. If there is no CU, that removes Scottish consumers from the value of the £ (9%) it removes Scottish trade from the balance of payments and as the treasury has already stated, it releases Scotland from it's obligations on national debt (£1.7 Trillion!)

We'd find it tough to create a currency from scratch, but given we'd be debt free we'd manage.That's not a threat, it's a fact.The Treasury has taken all responsibility for debt, we'd have none.

If you can tell me of any business that has confirmed it's leaving we'll discuss it.If you refer to RBS moving it's head office-and nothing more- that's already been discounted by the Cheif Exec of RBS.They're staying.Contingencies have to put in place ( by everyone except the govt, apparently) but they're precisely that-contingencies.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

So you saying NO plus Devo-max brings 'chaos' for England, Wales and NI; YES plus CU is hardly going to be worse for England, Wales and NI.

Yet Westminster say Devo-max is NO problem; CU is YES problem

Of course it brings a degree of chaos to rUK.you live in Surrey, yes? Your MP is summoned to Westminster to endorse giving Scotland continuing Barnett payments, increased levels of autonomy and spending and he's expected to vote for that?Who pays?you lot do.Will that MP get reelected if he votes aye? No he doesn't.

I fail to see how a CU affects anyone adversely?

 

[CMAC]

I've honestly done that loads on here, but appreciate things can be lost in the threads I've done it on.

So, no CU. I'm confident it will happen, Carney has been at pains to confirm all the correct economic parameters are in place, only political will.To stress, all the economic parameters required for a CU, according to Mark Carney of the BoE are in place.Only politicians are refusing this, and only they can tell you why.

But OK, no CU.Scotland can either use the £ floating,apply to use Euro ( anyone think, given the state of euro, we'd be refused? Me neither.) or set up a new currency. If there is no CU, that removes Scottish consumers from the value of the £ (9%) it removes Scottish trade from the balance of payments and as the treasury has already stated, it releases Scotland from it's obligations on national debt (£1.7 Trillion!)

We'd find it tough to create a currency from scratch, but given we'd be debt free we'd manage.That's not a threat, it's a fact.The Treasury has taken all responsibility for debt, we'd have none.

If you can tell me of any business that has confirmed it's leaving we'll discuss it.If you refer to RBS moving it's head office-and nothing more- that's already been discounted by the Cheif Exec of RBS.They're staying.Contingencies have to put in place ( by everyone except the govt, apparently) but they're precisely that-contingencies.

do you seriously seriously believe that? WAKEN UP!

 

[Adi2Dassler]

do you seriously seriously believe that? WAKEN UP!

Can you show me anything, by anyone in power at the treasury that has said anything contrary to that?

Sir Nick MacPherson seems to agree with me-

''Early this year the government made clear that existing debt, erm, is, er, was issued by the United Kingdom and United Kingdom stands behind that debt.”

 

[CMAC]

I'm bowing out of this thread now- I'll watch what happens and read the YES fairy stories and assumptions despite the facts being thrust in their face.

I don't think anyone will change their vote now- bit like exams, if you don't know by now you'll never know.


I just hope the YES 'headbangers', and there are many, dont over react when its a NO on Friday. I have friends in the police and the parliament will be guarded Friday as they 'feel' there could be a backlash from the YES if they dont get their way. I know many are voting for the wrong reasons (demo vote against Westminster, or a 'fairer society' whatever that is) but I hope they arent stupid enough to resort to civil unrest.

 

[One Planer]

Can you show me anything, by anyone in power at the treasury that has said anything contrary to that?

Sir Nick MacPherson seems to agree with me-

By the same token then.

If an iScotland are allowed to walk away from debt created as part of the UK, then an iScotland should also be made to walk away from any assets created within the UK?

Effectively leaving them with not debt, but also no assets. A blank sheet if you will.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

I'm bowing out of this thread now- I'll watch what happens and read the YES fairy stories and assumptions despite the facts being thrust in their face.

I don't think anyone will change their vote now- bit like exams, if you don't know by now you'll never know.


I just hope the YES 'headbangers', and there are many, dont over react when its a NO on Friday. I have friends in the police and the parliament will be guarded Friday as they 'feel' there could be a backlash from the YES if they dont get their way. I know many are voting for the wrong reasons (demo vote against Westminster, or a 'fairer society' whatever that is) but I hope they arent stupid enough to resort to civil unrest.

You seem to have a very low opinion of yes voters, which is a shame as we're just normal Scots like you and other No Thanks voters.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

By the same token then.

If an iScotland are allowed to walk away from debt created as part of the UK, then an iScotland should also be made to walk away from any assets created within the UK?

Effectively leaving them with not debt, but also no assets. A blank sheet if you will.

Of Course. No assets, except those we own already....you do accept that we can't give you Stirling Castle or The Forth Rail Bridge or the fish out our seas or the oil out our ground?

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

But they would have to buy back all the UK built assets in iScot, ergo they would start in debt.

I can see where you are coming from the the CU Adi, but I think it's too easy to brush off not getting a CU and brush past the risks of that.

Annoyingly, Salmond was repeatedly asked for the risks of an iScot last night and refused to answer

By the same token then.

If an iScotland are allowed to walk away from debt created as part of the UK, then an iScotland should also be made to walk away from any assets created within the UK?

Effectively leaving them with not debt, but also no assets. A blank sheet if you will.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

But they would have to buy back all the UK built assets in iScot, ergo they would start in debt.

I can see where you are coming from the the CU Adi, but I think it's too easy to brush off not getting a CU and brush past the risks of that.

Annoyingly, Salmond was repeatedly asked for the risks of an iScot last night and refused to answer

Buy back UK built assets in iScot? That reopens the notion we'd be entitled to a % of UK built assets in England.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Buy back UK built assets in iScot? That reopens the notion we'd be entitled to a % of UK built assets in England.

No it doesn't?

If you're not having the debt, you don't get the assets. Ergo, the valuers come in, value the assets in Scotland that belong to the UK, and you can buy it off us.

I don't see how you could argue both that the debt isn't yours, but that the assets are. I understand the debt part, as the treasury agreed that, but the assets that were built with UK money, and you can't keep them for nothing.