Scotland Debate

[Deleted member 15344]

It was indeed an assumption/inference - but a pretty reasonable one under the circumstances (unless outside UK which merely confirms my 'faffing' comment). If they were in Scotland you would have used them rather than those on 600.

So where are they? Rates in Ireland and Wales ain't normally that high!

And you next bit of faff could well be that you didn't mention £s either!

I do believe my point has been made and I also believe you wanted it back on topic :thup:

Have a good evening

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Gents, can we calm things down please. Before it gets out of hand.


Thanks

 

[Foxholer]

I do believe my point has been made and I also believe you wanted it back on topic :thup:

Have a good evening

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I have never heard of anyone paying such a huge fine in Scotland.

By the way the programme was being presented it seems quite normal in London.
The initial charge was £60 by the time the bailiffs got involved it seemed to escalate to £600 or car confiscation.

The comment I was making was about the 62 hours of labour that an ordinary Scottish workman would take to pay such an unfair sum.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I have never heard of anyone paying such a huge fine in Scotland.

By the way the programme was being presented it seems quite normal in London.
The initial charge was £60 by the time the bailiffs got involved it seemed to escalate to £600 or car confiscation.

The comment I was making was about the 62 hours of labour that an ordinary Scottish workman would take to pay such an unfair sum.

Again you are massively generalising based on one person ?!?

And a lot of people get paid a lot less than £8 an hour all over the UK - not just your one Scottish Workman

 

[NWJocko]

The comment I was making was about the 62 hours of labour that an ordinary Scottish workman would take to pay such an unfair sum.

The rest is nonsense.

What makes the Scottish workman different to any other "ordinary" workman outside of London?

If you visited some areas of Lancashire (and I'm sure elsewhere in England) you would see that things are not a bed of roses down here by any stretch......

Often folk will pay these things on credit card as car is second only to mortgage payments in people's priorities (debt priorities) so when things have escalated they'd sooner take the debt on credit card than lose their car.

Still not sure what relevance it has to the independence debate

 

[chris661]

End of the discussion regarding wages and fines thanks.

Back to the debate of independence or this is finished as a thread.

Ta Muchly.

 

[SocketRocket]

I'm most certainly not a Colonialist!

As I posted, 'The Shires' is not enough - certainly not a good description. What colour was that 'fat backside' of England in electoral results? Blue of course! So you would possibly be less wrong/incomplete if you simply stated 'England minus the South West and North (East)'!

You seem to misunderstand the term "The Shires' It's not a line on a map, it's more a cultural divide, a bit like the Cotswolds or Wessex. It's the areas most unaffected by the new idiom of multiculturalism, where people are most like to enjoy the traditional way of life and don't see a need to change. It's Conservatism, the wish to maintain culture.

 

[Foxholer]

You seem to misunderstand the term "The Shires' It's not a line on a map, it's more a cultural divide, a bit like the Cotswolds or Wessex. It's the areas most unaffected by the new idiom of multiculturalism, where people are most like to enjoy the traditional way of life and don't see a need to change. It's Conservatism, the wish to maintain culture.

Which makes a mockery of your post with the map showing them!

About as sensible as saying the Tories appeal to all the conservative folk and Labour to the (manual) workers! Talk about stating the bleedin' obvious!

And I think you've forgotten what the tack was all about - the areas where the Tories dominate. So it IS lines on a map, not the type of folk who live in those areas - which you may have described. You seem to be saying that 'The Shires' has 2 (or more) meanings - physical and cultural.

Just as it wasn't good enough to restrict their dominance to the South East, it's also not good enough to restrict it to 'the shires'! Just look at the bleedin' map and you will see that's obvious!

I still maintain my description of the areas is as good as, and probably better than, any other - though I should add 'and/or Mining' to the 'traditional Industrial' exception.

Now, how many of your conservatives - 'unaffected by the new idiom of multiculturalism' if that's how you want to describe them - are there in Scotland? Btw. That's not my view of the vast majority of Tory voters, but there certainly seems to be a few of those old relics still about! My thoughts are that it's those preaching Grandparents and Mother-in-law types that the Yes voters are keen to get rid of and carve their own destiny!

 

[Foxholer]

Oh, and back On Topic.

Can the BT/No proponents actually provide any REAL reasons why the Scots would actually be better off staying in The Union - transition difficulties excluded.

While I can list a couple, it seems to me that the Vision of the benefits of self-determination that the Yes campaign is putting across is much more powerful and compelling than those reasons. That is what I see as the problem the BT/No campaign has to overcome - or continue to, very negatively, push the fear of change (conservatism?) that is natural.

And for those BT/No supporters..a couple of question. Would you vote to withdraw from/diminish the Brussels/Strasbourg EU Parlia ment's power over UK? Is your answer compatible with the equivalent by the Scots?

 

[Old Skier]

And for those BT/No supporters..a couple of question. Would you vote to withdraw from/diminish the Brussels/Strasbourg EU Parlia ment's power over UK? Is your answer compatible with the equivalent by the Scots?

I think you know the answer to that already but that is a completely different argument as the vote for joining the EU or not was based on a completely different set of criteria than is in force today and most of the legislation and spending in the EU is done by faceless bureaucrats under no real control.
Last time I looked Scotland already has control of the majority of what goes on up there with control over a lot of its spending and has its own legal system and it even has MPs that can exert control over what happens in RUK with votes in Westminister.

 

[Foxholer]

I think you know the answer to that already but that is a completely different argument as the vote for joining the EU or not was based on a completely different set of criteria than is in force today and most of the legislation and spending in the EU is done by faceless bureaucrats under no real control.
Last time I looked Scotland already has control of the majority of what goes on up there with control over a lot of its spending and has its own legal system and it even has MPs that can exert control over what happens in RUK with votes in Westminister.

Well, you'd be wrong! I have no idea!

But it does seem like selfish or at least self-righteous, hypocrisy to want freedom from the shackles of Brussels, then deny Scotland the equivalent.

EEC may have started off as different, but has certainly morphed, thus the name change and the need for re-affirmation - something denied, out of fear of a 'No', by the Blair administration with typical 'we know best' arrogance. So the issues are really the same - independence and self determination, while still maintaining all the good things about co-operation and mutual benefit.

Who is really at fault if there are 'faceless bureaucrats under no real control' btw!

If you think Scottish MPs exert any control over what happens in rUK - in this Parliament - you are in cloud cuckoo land! Arrogant tokenism of a benevolent dictatorship is probably the best description imo - at least when Westminster is Tory dominated. Has Broon had any influence since 2010? His own constituency, in fact, typifies the problem! To the Scots, Westminster and those with real power to make a difference to their lives and futures are also faceless bureaucrats over whom they have no real control!

 

[SocketRocket]

Well, you'd be wrong! I have no idea!

But it does seem like selfish or at least self-righteous, hypocrisy to want freedom from the shackles of Brussels, then deny Scotland the equivalent.

EEC may have started off as different, but has certainly morphed, thus the name change and the need for re-affirmation - something denied, out of fear of a 'No', by the Blair administration with typical 'we know best' arrogance. So the issues are really the same - independence and self determination, while still maintaining all the good things about co-operation and mutual benefit.

Who is really at fault if there are 'faceless bureaucrats under no real control' btw!

If you think Scottish MPs exert any control over what happens in rUK - in this Parliament - you are in cloud cuckoo land! Arrogant tokenism of a benevolent dictatorship is probably the best description imo - at least when Westminster is Tory dominated. Has Broon had any influence since 2010? His own constituency, in fact, typifies the problem! To the Scots, Westminster and those with real power to make a difference to their lives and futures are also faceless bureaucrats over whom they have no real control!

You are ignoring the fact that Scotland has it's own parliament.

 

[Old Skier]

Well, you'd be wrong! I have no idea!

But it does seem like selfish or at least self-righteous, hypocrisy to want freedom from the shackles of Brussels, then deny Scotland the equivalent.

EEC may have started off as different, but has certainly morphed, thus the name change and the need for re-affirmation - something denied, out of fear of a 'No', by the Blair administration with typical 'we know best' arrogance. So the issues are really the same - independence and self determination, while still maintaining all the good things about co-operation and mutual benefit.

Who is really at fault if there are 'faceless bureaucrats under no real control' btw!

If you think Scottish MPs exert any control over what happens in rUK - in this Parliament - you are in cloud cuckoo land! Arrogant tokenism of a benevolent dictatorship is probably the best description imo - at least when Westminster is Tory dominated. Has Broon had any influence since 2010? His own constituency, in fact, typifies the problem! To the Scots, Westminster and those with real power to make a difference to their lives and futures are also faceless bureaucrats over whom they have no real control!

A post with a dangled fishing rod that is not worthy of a reply as I presume by your other posts that you do have a grasp of politics even though your grasp on reality may be slipping.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

How many on hear can name their local appointed faceless MEP?
I certainly cannot.

 

[Old Skier]

How many on hear can name their local appointed faceless MEP?
I certainly cannot.

Unfortunately I can but I tend to check out people's record during a run up to an election. However it's not the elected ones that cause the problems. It's the commissioners and their cronies that are the major problem.

 

[chris661]

How many on hear can name their local appointed faceless MEP?
I certainly cannot.

Unfortunately I can but I tend to check out people's record during a run up to an election. However it's not the elected ones that cause the problems. It's the commissioners and their cronies that are the major problem.

What does that have to do with a debate on Scotland?

Doon you seem I the t on trying to take this off topic. Start a new thread if you so wish but stop trying to go off on a tangent in the is one. There have already been a few warnings regarding this. Thanks.

 

[Old Skier]

What does that have to do with a debate on Scotland?

Doon you seem I the t on trying to take this off topic. Start a new thread if you so wish but stop trying to go off on a tangent in the is one. There have already been a few warnings regarding this. Thanks.

To be fair I think this is in context as it's to do with the nasty Brits wanting to withdraw from the EU and running their own affairs and some Scots wanting to do the same although if they new anything about the EU and the iscot issue it is completely different.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

If you think Scottish MPs exert any control over what happens in rUK - in this Parliament - you are in cloud cuckoo land! Arrogant tokenism of a benevolent dictatorship is probably the best description imo - at least when Westminster is Tory dominated. Has Broon had any influence since 2010? His own constituency, in fact, typifies the problem! To the Scots, Westminster and those with real power to make a difference to their lives and futures are also faceless bureaucrats over whom they have no real control!

Certainly have done whenever the UK has had a Labour Government. Anyone remember how Scottish Labour MP's helped the then Govt to get its legislation on tuition fees for universities through.

 

[Foxholer]

What does that have to do with a debate on Scotland?

Doon you seem I the t on trying to take this off topic. Start a new thread if you so wish but stop trying to go off on a tangent in the is one. There have already been a few warnings regarding this. Thanks.

I have to stick my hand up here and say that it was me that brought the EU comparison up.

But without getting into the actual debate over continued EU membership, I believe the situation is equivalent, though not identical.

How can those who object to the perceived loss of control to the EU, then also deny the equivalent to Scotland?