Ruling Required

[jimjoachim]

Hi, I had a frustrating situation on saturday in our monthly medal.

I teed off on 13,which is a raised tee box, and missed my fairway but could see the ball land, roll and come to rest on the 12th fairway.

To get to the fairway we have to walk down through a quarry and back up the other side.
I got to where my ball should have been and it wasnt there!! Confused I look and see a ball sitting 20 yards away in the rough. Check it and it is the same make and number (Titleist 3) as mine but didnt have my marking on it. At this point i am virtually certain that my ball has been played by the group going up the 12th.

The group were already out of sight and to keep things moving my playing partners tell me I can drop one under rule 18.1 and play on??

A couple of holes we cross the group in question again. I go up to speak with them to let them know what i think has happened. One of the guys tells me he is playing a Titleist 3, we check "his" ball and sure enough it has my marking on it!! The guy was gutted as he was 5 better than his handicap at this stage. I went from feeling annoyed to guilty for not chasing them up the 12th fairway.....

So question is, what is the ruling for both of us??
Im pretty sure he is DQed as it is a stroke comp.
Was I okay to take that drop? From looking at the rule, how certain is "virtually certain"?

I went in and explained the situation to the pro after and he thinks we are both DQed, as i should have went back to the tee and played 3???

I wouldnt have ended with a winning card but it could be a matter of buffer or +0.1.

Thanks

J

 

[pbrown7582]

I would agree with the pro you both are dq'd.

 

[palindromicbob]

Straight and easy one for the other player. He is DQ'd under 15-3

However, "virtual certainty" also means that, although the ball has not been found, when all readily available information is considered, the conclusion that there is nowhere that the ball could be except in the water hazard would be justified.
In determining whether "virtual certainty" exists, some of the relevant factors in the area of the water hazard to be considered include topography, turf conditions, grass heights, visibility, weather conditions and the proximity of trees, bushes and abnormal ground conditions.
The same principles would apply for a ball that may have been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1) or a ball that has not been found and may be in an obstruction (Rule 24-3) or an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1c).*

Did you know and see there was a group playing the 12th and approaching the area of your ball? If so that would feed into the relevant factors to make your decision.

You need to weigh up all available evidence and your OP doesn't provide enough conclusive information for the time you decided to proceed under 18.1.
If you can show that there was enough information available to be virtually certain then you proceeded correctly under 18-1 and hopefully also under 20-3c (Spot Not Determinable) then there is no DQ or penalty and you proceeded correctly.

Ok later information confirms you were correct and you ball had been moved but you need to know or be virually certain before you proceed under 18-1.

 

[bladeplayer]

Hi, I had a frustrating situation on saturday in our monthly medal.

I teed off on 13,which is a raised tee box, and missed my fairway but could see the ball land, roll and come to rest on the 12th fairway.

To get to the fairway we have to walk down through a quarry and back up the other side.
I got to where my ball should have been and it wasnt there!! Confused I look and see a ball sitting 20 yards away in the rough. Check it and it is the same make and number (Titleist 3) as mine but didnt have my marking on it. At this point i am virtually certain that my ball has been played by the group going up the 12th.

The group were already out of sight and to keep things moving my playing partners tell me I can drop one under rule 18.1 and play on??

A couple of holes we cross the group in question again. I go up to speak with them to let them know what i think has happened. One of the guys tells me he is playing a Titleist 3, we check "his" ball and sure enough it has my marking on it!! The guy was gutted as he was 5 better than his handicap at this stage. I went from feeling annoyed to guilty for not chasing them up the 12th fairway.....

So question is, what is the ruling for both of us??
Im pretty sure he is DQed as it is a stroke comp.
Was I okay to take that drop? From looking at the rule, how certain is "virtually certain"?

I went in and explained the situation to the pro after and he thinks we are both DQed, as i should have went back to the tee and played 3???

I wouldnt have ended with a winning card but it could be a matter of buffer or +0.1.

Thanks

J

If more than just yourself saw the ball come to rest on the other fairway & were sure that it was you ball , then i see no reason why you couldnt apply 18/1 and drop a point closest to where ye thought the original had last come to rest

 

[bladeplayer]

Straight and easy one for the other player. He is DQ'd under 15-3




Did you know and see there was a group playing the 12th and approaching the area of your ball? If so that would feed into the relevant factors to make your decision.

You need to weigh up all available evidence and your OP doesn't provide enough conclusive information for the time you decided to proceed under 18.1. If you can show that there was enough information available to be virtually certain then you proceeded correctly under 18-1 and hopefully also under 20-3c (Spot Not Determinable) then there is no DQ or penalty and you proceeded correctly.

Ok later information confirms you were correct and you ball had been moved but you need to know or be virually certain before you proceed under 18-1.

Would you need to know this Bob? they saw the ball land and come to rest , then its not there when they get down , surely it has to be moved by an outside agency then ? or am i seeing this too simply ?

 

[jimjoachim]

From out position on the 13th tee we were able to see the ball pitch, roll and stop on the 12th fairway.

We couldnt see if someone was coming up the 12th at that time as you cant see right back to the 12th tee from our position.
Although the course is always full on a saturday morning so you could be certain that there would be someone coming through the 12th

By the time we had walked down through the quarry and back up the other side the ball would have been out of sight for a couple of minutes.

In hindsight I should have chased them up the 12th fairway to check but we were already losing ground on the group in front....

 

[palindromicbob]

Would you need to know this Bob? they saw the ball land and come to rest , then its not there when they get down , surely it has to be moved by an outside agency then ? or am i seeing this too simply ?

It adds more evidence to considered factors. Doesn't need to but certainly helps make the deicision. This wouldn't be the first time I've heard about someone losing a ball that was visable from an elevated tee and vanished when they get to it.
It's really hard to call on the situation without knowing the holes or conditions etc (could wind have moved it?).

Trouble with Virtual certainty is that there is always a doubt remaining. On the surface it would appear that the OP has made the correct descision but needs to show all factors were considered in coming to a decision.

 

[bladeplayer]

It adds more evidenced to considered factors. Doesn't need to but certainly helps make the deicision. This wouldn't be the first time I've heard about someone losing a ball that was visable from an elevated tee and vanashed when they get to it.
It's really hard to call on the situation without knowing the holes or conditions etc (could wind have moved it?).

Trouble with Virtual certainty is that there is always a doubt remaining. On the surface it would appear that the OP has made the correct descision but needs to show all factors were considered in coming to a decision.

Yea i never even considerd that mate & wind is not classed as an outside agent..

 

[jimjoachim]

The wind wouldnt have been strong enough to move it and even if it had there is nowhere but fairway and light rough for it to go.

Suppose, what would differentiate between "certainty" and "virtual certainty"?

 

[duncan mackie]

The wind wouldnt have been strong enough to move it and even if it had there is nowhere but fairway and light rough for it to go.

Suppose, what would differentiate between "certainty" and "virtual certainty"?

From what you have described you have the necessary virtual certainty you needed to proceed on the basis that your ball has been removed by an outside agency - finding the other ball of the same make etc in the vicinity just provides you with more information on the probably nature of the agency! If it had been possible to establish the facts without delaying the game then this is the prudent course of action but you, and your fellow competitors, seemed to judge that this was not possible. That judgement should stand unless there is firm evidence to the contrary.

What should happen is that -

He is DQ

You have no penalty and your score stands.

Edit - sorry should also add, in response to your question, the meaning of known or virtually certain is discussed in decision 26-1/1

 

[Region3]

Just out of curiosity, if it was decided that 'virtual certainty' was not established but the OP proceeded to drop a ball anyway, would the later evidence that the ball had been moved by someone else vindicate that decision or still result in DQ for the incorrect procedure?

 

[jimjoachim]

Just out of curiosity, if it was decided that 'virtual certainty' was not established but the OP proceeded to drop a ball anyway, would the later evidence that the ball had been moved by someone else vindicate that decision or still result in DQ for the incorrect procedure?

Good question!! would be interested to know myself.
I suspect that in this instance you couldnt take the drop.

 

[Colin L]

Firstly, I agree that there is enough evidence for virtual certainty in the OP's situation: the ball seen clearly coming to rest on an adjacent fairway; the group going up the other hole being in a position where one of them could have played it; a ball of the same make model and number being close by; the conclusion, after considering possibilities, that there was nothing else that could have moved it.

In a different situation where the player decides he does not have virtual certainty of his ball having been moved, his ball is lost and his only procedure is stroke and distance. Subsequently finding that an outside agency had in fact made off with his ball would not change anything. That means that if the player had dropped a ball where his original had been lost, he would be playing from a wrong place with a 2 stroke penalty. Considering the distance between where he should have played from (the place of his previous stroke) and where actually played from, this was a serious breach. He was therefore required to play another ball from the correct place and report the facts to the Committee for a decision as to which ball was to count. If he did not correct the error before playing off at the next tee, he is disqualified.

 

[Kellfire]

We had a similar situation to this yesterday.

Player A teed off, pulled his tee shot left onto adjacent fairway from an elevated tee. It was seen to land in the fairway.

They walk down to find it has moved into the rough, and a nearby Pay and Player admits he thought it was a spare ball so lifted it and then threw it down when he saw a group of members approaching.

Player A played the ball from the new position because all three players in his group were inexperienced with the rules and thought this was the correct procedure. :temper::temper:

 

[rulefan]

Just out of curiosity, if it was decided that 'virtual certainty' was not established but the OP proceeded to drop a ball anyway, would the later evidence that the ball had been moved by someone else vindicate that decision or still result in DQ for the incorrect procedure?

This is the Decision for such a situation.

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-27,d27-1-2.5