Ruling please?

Dodger

Dodger

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Right men........what's the craic if the following happens?

A man marks his ball on the green and it is fairly close to the line of the man he is playing in matchplay,he taps the marker down with his putter/thumb and the marker stick to the putter/thumb and he doesn't realise till he's walked away.

Is there a penalty or is it just stick it back to where it came?
 
No penalty

Decision 20-1/6

A player marked the position of his ball with a coin, lifted the ball and pressed down the coin with the sole of his putter. He walked to the edge of the green and then noticed that the coin had stuck to the sole of the putter. What is the ruling?

In this case, the movement of the ball-marker was directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of the ball.
Accordingly, no penalty is incurred and the ball or the ballmarker must be replaced. If the spot where the ball or the ballmarker lay is not known, it must be placed as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole (Rule 20-3c).
 
According to R&A

A ball to be lifted under the Rules may be lifted by the player, his partner or another person authorised by the player. In any such case, the player is responsible for any breach of the Rules.
The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted under a Rule that requires it to be replaced. If it is not marked, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke and the ball must be replaced. If it is not replaced, the player incurs the general penalty for breach of this Rule but there is no additional penalty under Rule 20-1.
If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of lifting the ball under a Rule or marking its position, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of or lifting the ball.
 
(Edit - Flydewhite is correct)

20-1/5

A player marked the position of his ball on the putting green and lifted the ball. When it was the player's turn to play, he could not find his ball-marker. Subsequently, he found the ball-marker stuck to the sole of his shoe. He concluded that he had accidentally stepped on it while assisting his partner in lining up a putt. What is the ruling?


The player incurs a penalty stroke under Rule 20-1 which requires that the position of a ball be marked before it is lifted, and contemplates that the ball-marker will remain in position until the ball is replaced. The player must place the ball as near as possible to its original position but not nearer the hole – Rule 20-3c.
Under the last paragraph of Rule 20-1, a player is exempt from penalty if his ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of lifting the ball or marking its position. In this case the ball-marker was not moved during such process.
 
So is tapping it down with thumb or putter AFTER it has been marked "directly attributable" to marking the ball???
Click to expand...


Yes, I would say so - lots of people place their markers and then tap them down wih their putter. It has to be part of the act of marking covered by the rules that Ethan says



Chris
 
So is tapping it down with thumb or putter AFTER it has been marked "directly attributable" to marking the ball???
Click to expand...
i would think not.. surely when the ball was lifted it is marked (ie.. the act of marking is over ) .. hence penalty applies .. but what penalty . ?? 1 shot & replace marker ??
 
i would think that since the ball cannot be moved until the position is marked, then lifting the ball and tapping the marker is a seperate action to marking the ball, therefore a penalty applies..
 
Good luck to you guys if you ever call a penalty on someone for that. You would be the most unpopular guys in the club and,as Ethan has already said, decision 20- 1.6 covers the problem and it is definitely NOT a penalty


Chris
 
I was under the impression that Ethan had changed his position! Once the ball is lifted, the marker is considered as placed. Tapping it with the ball, putter, shoe etc is a separate action. Penalty should apply, but I am willing to be proven completely wrong.
 
Good luck to you guys if you ever call a penalty on someone for that. You would be the most unpopular guys in the club and,as Ethan has already said, decision 20- 1.6 covers the problem and it is definitely NOT a penalty


Chris
Click to expand...
I accept your & ethans explination Chris but can you or ethan tell me what tapping down the marker with the putter after the ball has been marked & lifted .. has to do with the process of marking a ball .. ?? thats the bit that puzzels me mate ..
 
interesting one.

At first I'd of said no penalty but the counter statement is true. Tapping it down is an act following the orignal marking of the ball.

I suppose it is just considered unlucky just as with Ian Poulter when replacing his ball at Dubai or one of the big tournaments at the end of last season.
 
I accept your & ethans explination Chris but can you or ethan tell me what tapping down the marker with the putter after the ball has been marked & lifted .. has to do with the process of marking a ball .. ?? thats the bit that puzzels me mate ..
Click to expand...



Its all part of some peoples routine, they bend down place their marker, take their ball away and then tap down their marker so that if anyones ball runs over it it doen't affect the run of the ball.In fact some player ask that you tap or push down a marker near their line but not to move it as it gives them a line.

The second example Ethan gave clearly showed the marker moved in a totally seperate action.


Chris
 
interesting one.

At first I'd of said no penalty but the counter statement is true. Tapping it down is an act following the orignal marking of the ball.

I suppose it is just considered unlucky just as with Ian Poulter when replacing his ball at Dubai or one of the big tournaments at the end of last season.
Click to expand...

Mmmm I dont think it's a penalty.
 
I accept your & ethans explination Chris but can you or ethan tell me what tapping down the marker with the putter after the ball has been marked & lifted .. has to do with the process of marking a ball .. ?? thats the bit that puzzels me mate ..
Click to expand...



Its all part of some peoples routine, they bend down place their marker, take their ball away and then tap down their marker so that if anyones ball runs over it it doen't affect the run of the ball.In fact some player ask that you tap or push down a marker near their line but not to move it as it gives them a line.

The second example Ethan gave clearly showed the marker moved in a totally seperate action.


Chris
Click to expand...
Yea im accepting the ruling Chris & i see the 2nd example as a definate penalty.. & forgive me if i seem nitpicking here & i apreciate your answers,& i apreciate you are right also , but can a rule allow for different routines ??? as i said i accept the answer that Ethan gave i just dont understand it, as to me the min the ball is lifted the "act of marking" is over mate .. i suppose it a bit like not touching the line of your putt but some people place their putter in front of the ball then behind it as part of their routine & thats ok ..
 
Yea im accepting the ruling Chris & i see the 2nd example as a definate penalty.. & forgive me if i seem nitpicking here & i apreciate your answers,& i apreciate you are right also , but can a rule allow for different routines ??? as i said i accept the answer that Ethan gave i just dont understand it, as to me the min the ball is lifted the "act of marking" is over mate .. i suppose it a bit like not touching the line of your putt but some people place their putter in front of the ball then behind it as part of their routine & thats ok ..
Click to expand...



If its clearly their routine and you are happy that it is part of the routine then it's going to be ok. Ethan gave a ruling from The Decisions on the Rules and the original question was answered "cut and dried" so unless someone does something wholly different to that ruling then its ok -some people have quirky routines it is not for us to disect the ruling to the degree that happens on this site!

Just on the "touching the line of the putt" the rule, as far as I read it, is that you cant press anything down on the line but you can touch it as you would in the example you gave but also to, say, move a loose impediment



Chris
 
If he was marking the ball and pushed down during this marking process then yes Decision 20-1/6 would come in. No penalty.

Also touching the line of putt does not apply to pressing down a ball marker. 16-1a(v)

If he had walked away and was told that it was on the line of the putt then the ruling becomes less clear and is probably why this thread is continuing. I can't think of any other reason as the answer was given by Ethan in the 3rd post.

Definition of directly attributable.
In Rule 20-1 the phrase means the specific act of placing a ball-marker behind the ball, placing a club to the side of the ball, or lifting the ball such that the player's hand, the placement of the ball-marker or the club, or the lifting of the ball causes the ball or the ball-marker to move.

As the act of the marking the ball had been carried out then going back to push down the marker might lead people to argue that is was no directly attributable to the act of marking.

You could then argue that it is a 1 stroke penalty in stroke play or loss of hole in a match.

In equity however it would be only be fair to let decision 20-1/6 stand. I'd say pressing the marker down was an extension of the act of marking the ball and no penalty should be given. Had the opponent pressed down the marker after it was placed with the players authority and moved it then no penalty would occur. So why should the player pressing it down for his opponent result in penalty? Decision 20-1/6.5
 
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