rules question

[spudgun007]

Hi

I was wondering if anyone out there could answer my question & thanks in advance

I was playing in a match play final & on a hole the person I was playing pulled their drive into deep rough, I located his ball which was in a heavy lie, he walked up to the ball, & as I turned away I looked back & observed him standing in the tall tough grass directly behind his ball 3 or four times he pressed down with his foot, I immediately asked what the hell he was doing, & stated that I felt this was not allowed,
Now I know he has caused an infringement, what I would like to know is has he cheated as he knowingly improved his lie to gain an advantage again & again it was not an accident, I did not speak to him for the rest of the match & would like to know other peoples thought

cheers

 

[woody69]

Hi

I was wondering if anyone out there could answer my question & thanks in advance

I was playing in a match play final & on a hole the person I was playing pulled their drive into deep rough, I located his ball which was in a heavy lie, he walked up to the ball, & as I turned away I looked back & observed him standing in the tall tough grass directly behind his ball 3 or four times he pressed down with his foot, I immediately asked what the hell he was doing, & stated that I felt this was not allowed,
Now I know he has caused an infringement, what I would like to know is has he cheated as he knowingly improved his lie to gain an advantage again & again it was not an accident, I did not speak to him for the rest of the match & would like to know other peoples thought

cheers

You didn't speak to him for the rest of the round? Seems a slight over reaction.

He's improved his intended swing (13-2) so it's loss of hole in match play. That's it.

The fact he was so blatent about it suggests he didn't know it was an infringement. Perhaps education rather than condemnation would have been a better approach to take.

 

[User20205]

Did u win?

 

[Beezerk]

Sod that, did you win?

 

[duncan mackie]

Now I know he has caused an infringement, what I would like to know is has he cheated as he knowingly improved his lie to gain an advantage again & again it was not an accident....

Cheating would generally be applied to someone knowing that what he was doing breached the rules - knowing that he was improving his lie is not the same thing.

Presumably, based on you obvious knowledge of the rules, you formally claimed that hole due to a breach of 13-2 - how did the committee rule?

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Surely in a final ignorance is no defence and it begs the question whether he'd done it before to get there

 

[woody69]

Surely in a final ignorance is no defence and it begs the question whether he'd done it before to get there

Ignorance is never a defence to apply a ruling, but people are ignorant of the rules

 

[duncan mackie]

Ignorance is never a defence to apply a ruling, but people are ignorant of the rules

:thup:

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Ignorance is never a defence to apply a ruling, but people are ignorant of the rules

I'm the first to admit the rules can be complicated and convoluted, but improving the lie is one that most golfers get told is against the rules from early in their golfing career. Assuming the person is also a member of a club, given it's a final, then I can't believe for a second they weren't aware they couldn't do this. Blatant cheating in my eyes I'm afraid (of course this is just my opinion and others may not see it as black and white)

 

[woody69]

I'm the first to admit the rules can be complicated and convoluted, but improving the lie is one that most golfers get told is against the rules from early in their golfing career. Assuming the person is also a member of a club, given it's a final, then I can't believe for a second they weren't aware they couldn't do this. Blatant cheating in my eyes I'm afraid (of course this is just my opinion and others may not see it as black and white)

It's never black and white. He may have thought that it's OK to flatten long grass behind the ball, just not in front or something. Perhaps he was cheating, only the player knows that.

 

[Foxholer]

Hi

I was wondering if anyone out there could answer my question & thanks in advance

I was playing in a match play final & on a hole the person I was playing pulled their drive into deep rough, I located his ball which was in a heavy lie, he walked up to the ball, & as I turned away I looked back & observed him standing in the tall tough grass directly behind his ball 3 or four times he pressed down with his foot, I immediately asked what the hell he was doing, & stated that I felt this was not allowed,
Now I know he has caused an infringement, what I would like to know is has he cheated as he knowingly improved his lie to gain an advantage again & again it was not an accident, I did not speak to him for the rest of the match & would like to know other peoples thought

cheers

Did you make a claim (in a timely manner) as required by The Rules - http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-02

If not, then I'm pretty sure that the result is as the match finished!

I believe that the only way you can determine whether he was cheating or not is to ask him whether he knew that the (apparently obvious) improvement of his lie was done knowing that it was a breach. That would have, of course, required you to talk to him - and receive an answer!

 

[atticusfinch]

Hi

I was wondering if anyone out there could answer my question & thanks in advance

I was playing in a match play final & on a hole the person I was playing pulled their drive into deep rough, I located his ball which was in a heavy lie, he walked up to the ball, & as I turned away I looked back & observed him standing in the tall tough grass directly behind his ball 3 or four times he pressed down with his foot, I immediately asked what the hell he was doing, & stated that I felt this was not allowed,
Now I know he has caused an infringement, what I would like to know is has he cheated as he knowingly improved his lie to gain an advantage again & again it was not an accident, I did not speak to him for the rest of the match & would like to know other peoples thought

cheers

One of the important things about penalties in the rules is that they do not punish bad behavior. They are intended to eliminate the potential advantage gained in the situation. (Level the field so to speak). The potential advantage is gained whether the breach is inadvertent or intentional.

Whether tournament organizers want to punish such behavior is another thing outside the rules of golf.

 

[drdel]

I can't believe any golfer playing in a competitive game is not aware of the principle of playing the ball as it lies and not improving the lie.

Tamping down anything (that's not a loose impediment) in the area of the ball to gain a better view and/or strike is obviously cheating and must attract a penalty.

Black and white in my mind; otherwise where does mildly stepping down long grass behind the ball end and 'gardening' start?

 

[mikejohnchapman]

It can be quite difficult at times. A couple of examples:

A friend of mine was playing a match and took a couple of practice swings parallel to the ball but a couple of feet inside it. He was called by his opponent for improving his stance!

When acting as a ref in a strokeplay event one of the players hit his ball into deep rough (trees & high weeds). We saw the ball go into the rough and quickly found it. To get to the ball to take a fair stance to try to hack it out the player had to walk into the rough along the line he was going to play. He had no choice but to tread some of the weeds down as he went to his ball. He was called for improving his line but we felt he had no choice and was entitled to take afair stance. Didn't go down well.