Rules Q: how many shots is it?

[vkurup]

As advised it's a 5, what might make it clearer is if you explain why you thought it wasn't a 5
(forget the confusion arising from 'his view' of a 2 shot pen given afterwards as you say you queried his result when he holed out & claimed 5)

The reason I thought it would be 6 is that according to me the ball in the water hazard (unless you can hit it out of the WH like the French guy at the Open) would be deemed lost and hence he would have to go back in line. The fact that he found the ball is only the incidental and dropping that or any other ball into play is effectively putting a new ball . As the ball should be deemed lost (irrespective of his fishing skills) he should be no better than someone who hits OOB and hence be 3 off the tee kindof situation.
so at best he would get to 6.

 

[Slab]

Ah ok

But the options for continuing play after you ball enters a WH are very different to the options available if your ball is OOB

Water Hazards (Rule 26)

If your ball is in a water hazard (yellow stakes and/or lines) you may play the ball as it lies or, under penalty of one stroke:

play a ball from where your last shot was played, or drop a ball any distance behind the water hazard keeping a straight line between the hole, the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard and the spot on which the ball is dropped.

Lost Ball, Out of Bounds (Rule 27)

Golfers lose balls and hit them out of bounds all the time, so it is important to know what to do when this happens.

If your ball is lost or out of bounds you must return to where you last played from and play again from there – called stroke and distance (Rule 27-1)


In effect if its known or virtually certain the ball is in a water hazard your ball isn't 'lost' (irrespective of whether you can retrieve it or not)

 

[woody69]

The reason I thought it would be 6 is that according to me the ball in the water hazard (unless you can hit it out of the WH like the French guy at the Open) would be deemed lost and hence he would have to go back in line. The fact that he found the ball is only the incidental and dropping that or any other ball into play is effectively putting a new ball . As the ball should be deemed lost (irrespective of his fishing skills) he should be no better than someone who hits OOB and hence be 3 off the tee kindof situation.
so at best he would get to 6.

Yeah, you're wrong. If you're in the water hazard, you either get to play as it lies within the hazard and not be penalised anything i.e. (you might want to do this if you're inside the yellow/red stakes but the water has receded so you can get a swing at your ball) or drop outside the hazard (using the options as outlined by other posters) for a 1 stroke penalty. Find the ball, don't find the ball it doesn't matter if you have to drop.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The reason I thought it would be 6 is that according to me the ball in the water hazard (unless you can hit it out of the WH like the French guy at the Open) would be deemed lost and hence he would have to go back in line. The fact that he found the ball is only the incidental and dropping that or any other ball into play is effectively putting a new ball . As the ball should be deemed lost (irrespective of his fishing skills) he should be no better than someone who hits OOB and hence be 3 off the tee kindof situation.
so at best he would get to 6.

Apart from anything else - a ball can't be lost if you find it. It might be actually unplayable; the player might deem it unplayable, or it may be deemed lost under the rules (not by the player) if not found within 5mins of player starting to look for it - but it ain't lost if you find it.

 

[rulefan]

The reason I thought it would be 6 is that according to me the ball in the water hazard (unless you can hit it out of the WH like the French guy at the Open) would be deemed lost and hence he would have to go back in line. The fact that he found the ball is only the incidental and dropping that or any other ball into play is effectively putting a new ball . As the ball should be deemed lost (irrespective of his fishing skills) he should be no better than someone who hits OOB and hence be 3 off the tee kindof situation.
so at best he would get to 6.

A ball known to be in a WH whether or not it can be seen or retrieved, is not lost. The term lost has a special meaning in golf. It does not include a ball in a WH until another ball is put into play under the WH rule.

There is no penalty for hitting a ball into a WH. The penalty arises when a ball is put into play under Rule 26-1.
If the player is lucky enough to find and be able to play his ball from a bit of dry land (say) in the WH, there is no penalty (unless he grounds his club - but that is another story).

If he can't find his ball, can't retrieve it or can't play it, then he must drop or place a ball (not necessarily the original) on any of the places specified in the rule (which includes going back to where he last hit the ball).
That costs him the 1 stroke penalty and his original ball is now lost(even though it may be on the floor in front of him).

He then plays the ball.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

A ball known to be in a WH whether or not it can be seen or retrieved, is not lost. The term lost has a special meaning in golf. It does not include a ball in a WH until another ball is put into play under the WH rule.

There is no penalty for hitting a ball into a WH. The penalty arises when a ball is put into play under Rule 26-1.
If the player is lucky enough to find and be able to play his ball from a bit of dry land (say) in the WH, there is no penalty (unless he grounds his club - but that is another story).

If he can't find his ball, can't retrieve it or can't play it, then he must drop or place a ball (not necessarily the original) on any of the places specified in the rule (which includes going back to where he last hit the ball).

That costs him the 1 stroke penalty and his original ball is now lost(even though it may be on the floor in front of him).

He then plays the ball.

BiB - surely his ball in these circumstances is simply unplayable rather than lost?

 

[pogle]

BiB - surely his ball in these circumstances is simply unplayable rather than lost?

The definition of a lost ball includes the following
d. The player has put another ball in play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1b or c);

The rules define it as lost, even though intuition tells you it isn't.

 

[MashieNiblick]

BiB - surely his ball in these circumstances is simply unplayable rather than lost?

I know what you mean but the one place you can't deem your ball "unplayable" under the Rules is when it is in a water hazard.

 

[rulefan]

The definition of a lost ball includes the following
d. The player has put another ball in play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1b or c);

The rules define it as lost, even though intuition tells you it isn't.

It only becomes lost when another ball is put into play. Not before.

So if relief is taken by replaying from the tee, the ball is lost when the stroke is made. Elsewhere, when the ball is dropped.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I know what you mean but the one place you can't deem your ball "unplayable" under the Rules is when it is in a water hazard.

There we go!