Rules Q: how many shots is it?

[vkurup]

Played a social knockout yesterday with a mate. On one of the P4 holes, he thinned one and it ran for miles and into a yellow staked water hazard ...
as we could counot see it go in, we walked up and found the ball in ankle deep water. So fished it out and hit a shot onto the green and 2 putted. He picked the ball and said 'Bogie 5'!!!
When I queried it, his explaination was if he lost the ball in the water it would have been a 2 stroke penalty but because he found the ball (which he picked up and dropped it play) and hadn't lost it so it was a 1 stroke penalty.. Not sure I agree..

 

[bobmac]

Tee shot, second in the water, drop out 3, chip on 4 and 2 putts........ 6

 

[rosecott]

Played a social knockout yesterday with a mate. On one of the P4 holes, he thinned one and it ran for miles and into a yellow staked water hazard ...
as we could counot see it go in, we walked up and found the ball in ankle deep water. So fished it out and hit a shot onto the green and 2 putted. He picked the ball and said 'Bogie 5'!!!
When I queried it, his explaination was if he lost the ball in the water it would have been a 2 stroke penalty but because he found the ball (which he picked up and dropped it play) and hadn't lost it so it was a 1 stroke penalty.. Not sure I agree..

Provided the ball was seen to enter and stay in the water hazard, there is no difference in the penalty whether the ball is found or not found.

 

[Foxholer]

Tee shot, second in the water, drop out 3, chip on 4 and 2 putts........ 6

Unless, of course, the 'thinned' shot was actually his Tee/First shot - in which case it was, indeed, 5.

That being the case, the guy was correct for that situation (1 PS for ball found in the water), but could well have been wrong (or misinterpreted) for the 'lost' ball situation!

Unless you Know or are Virtually Certain that the ball went into the water, it must be treated as a lost ball, so return to the tee for 'Stroke an Distance' is required. There is nothing about a 2 Shot Penalty for it being lost in the water, though the Stroke and Distance is effectively 2 shots (the area for possible misinterpretation). If you know (or are virtually certain) that the ball IS in the hazard, but don't/can't find it, then the penalty is only the same as if you found it in there and elect not to play it as it lies.

Hope that helps.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Tee shot, second in the water, drop out 3, chip on 4 and 2 putts........ 6

Unless it was his tee shot that he thinned into the hazard, then it is "Tee shot in the water, Drop, Chip, 2 putts " for a 5

either way, it is only a 1 shot penalty

 

[Fyldewhite]

Again, assuming that it was the tee shot went into the water it should be a 5.

This is more about what would have happened if the ball had not been found....i.e. his statement about a 2 shot penalty was wrong and he would have had to go back to the tee.

A further point is that when he "fished it out" did he drop correctly? The rules are strict on where to drop and it isn't at the nearest point of relief as it would be if it was casual water. Depending on the geography, "on line with the flag" can often result in a drop a long way from where the ball was.

 

[bobmac]

Unless it was his tee shot that he thinned into the hazard, then it is "Tee shot in the water, Drop, Chip, 2 putts " for a 5

either way, it is only a 1 shot penalty

That info wasn't in the OP, hence the

 

[M1ke]

Why does it make a difference if it was a tee shot as opposed to any other shot?

 

[Backache]

Why does it make a difference if it was a tee shot as opposed to any other shot?

I think people were wondreing how many strokes had been played to get to five or six.
In terms of proceding the only difference I can see is that if you were to procede under stroke and distance you can retee your ball if your previous shot was a tee shot whereas if you have played from elsewhere you will usually drop your ball from where you previously played.

 

[ScienceBoy]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/131544556247?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=108&chn=ps&device=c&rlsatarget=&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108&ff19=0

These work a treat

 

[Foxholer]

Why does it make a difference if it was a tee shot as opposed to any other shot?

It doesn't!

Except for counting the number of 'real' (non-penalty) shots involved so the score for the hole, which was the question in the OP.

 

[vkurup]

So here is the hole and my noddy drawing..





1) Tee shot... thinned but runs towards the water on the right hand side.. disappears from view. We think it may be safe but not sure. As it is a knockabout, we dont hit a provisional ==> Stroke #1

2) We reach the intended area and we find that the ball has indeed gone into the pond (not casual water). it is about a club length away and may be ankle deep. So out comes a club and we fish it out. It is indeed his ball.

3) Ball dropped back in where we think it crossed into the water. ==> Stroke #2

4) Approach shot ==> Stroke #3

5) 2 putt ==> Stroke #4, #5.

====
His view is that if the ball had gone any further into the water or if the discovered ball was not his. then he would
1) Gone back and 3 off the tee + approach + 2 putt = 6
2) Dropped back in the line between the water hazard and the tee box and repeated but would have got 6.

 

[Backache]

====
His view is that if the ball had gone any further into the water or if the discovered ball was not his. then he would
1) Gone back and 3 off the tee + approach + 2 putt = 6
2) Dropped back in the line between the water hazard and the tee box and repeated but would have got 6.

Everything you did was correct, however your alternative options had you not found it were not
Option 1) can be done
Option 2) could only be done if you were virtually certain the ball was in the water hazard ie there was no real possibility of having lost it anywhere else. If there was a possibility of it being lost outside the water hazard you have to take option 1) if there was no possibility of it being anywhere other than in the water hazard then you could take option 2) but there is only one penalty stroke not two so it would have been a five returned on the card.

 

[Foxholer]

So here is the hole and my noddy drawing..

View attachment 15945



1) Tee shot... thinned but runs towards the water on the right hand side.. disappears from view. We think it may be safe but not sure. As it is a knockabout, we dont hit a provisional ==> Stroke #1

2) We reach the intended area and we find that the ball has indeed gone into the pond (not casual water). it is about a club length away and may be ankle deep. So out comes a club and we fish it out. It is indeed his ball.

3) Ball dropped back in where we think it crossed into the water. ==> Stroke #2

4) Approach shot ==> Stroke #3

5) 2 putt ==> Stroke #4, #5.

====
His view is that if the ball had gone any further into the water or if the discovered ball was not his. then he would
1) Gone back and 3 off the tee + approach + 2 putt = 6
2) Dropped back in the line between the water hazard and the tee box and repeated but would have got 6.

The highlighted bit is a load of old cobblers! That option simply doesn't exist!

As you describe it - not 'known or virtually certain' that it went into the water - then the only option is to return to the tee under Stroke and Distance. As above, had there been no other possibility except that it was in the water, then option 1 is available - but there is no additional penalty for the inability to find it.

Another point (raised by your 'provisional ball' comment.
As you are only allowed to play a Provisional Ball for one that might be lost or out of bounds - the 'in a water hazard' condition is specifically excluded, except for a rare local rule - if you play a provisional ball, you are in effect saying that you do not certain enough that it is in the hazard, so cannot subsequently claim that it is! o that ball would automatically become the ball in play (and the 3rd shot, playing 4).

 

[rulefan]

====
His view is that if the ball had gone any further into the water or if the discovered ball was not his. then he would

2) Dropped back in the line between the water hazard and the tee box and repeated but would have got 6.

If he knows or is virtually certain that his ball went into the water, he doesn't have to find or see it (but it helps confirm it).

He then has two options.
1) S&D, as you say.
2) To estimate or determine where the ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard. He may then go back as far as he likes (staying on the course of course), on a line from the hole through the point of entry and drop a ball there with a penalty.

As it happens, your diagram seems to show it almost right.

 

[MashieNiblick]

Another point (raised by your 'provisional ball' comment.
As you are only allowed to play a Provisional Ball for one that might be lost or out of bounds - the 'in a water hazard' condition is specifically excluded, except for a rare local rule - if you play a provisional ball, you are in effect saying that you do not certain enough that it is in the hazard, so cannot subsequently claim that it is! o that ball would automatically become the ball in play (and the 3rd shot, playing 4).

Not necessarily. the KVC element may only become apparent after you have got nearer to the WH to see the actual situation , e.g. whether an area of long grass near where the ball went is within or outside the hazard.

Decisions

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball

and

27-2a/2.5 Player Plays Provisional Ball in Belief Original Might Be Lost Outside Water Hazard Then Discovers There Is No Possibility of Its Being Lost Outside Water Hazard

 

[Foxholer]

Not necessarily. the KVC element may only become apparent after you have got nearer to the WH to see the actual situation , e.g. whether an area of long grass near where the ball went is within or outside the hazard.

Decisions

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball

and

27-2a/2.5 Player Plays Provisional Ball in Belief Original Might Be Lost Outside Water Hazard Then Discovers There Is No Possibility of Its Being Lost Outside Water Hazard

Acknowledged! I had actually considered that, but had been too lazy to scan the many R27 Decisions! Doh!

 

[Fyldewhite]

The highlighted bit is a load of old cobblers! That option simply doesn't exist!

As you describe it - not 'known or virtually certain' that it went into the water - then the only option is to return to the tee under Stroke and Distance. As above, had there been no other possibility except that it was in the water, then option 1 is available - but there is no additional penalty for the inability to find it.

Another point (raised by your 'provisional ball' comment.
As you are only allowed to play a Provisional Ball for one that might be lost or out of bounds - the 'in a water hazard' condition is specifically excluded, except for a rare local rule - if you play a provisional ball, you are in effect saying that you do not certain enough that it is in the hazard, so cannot subsequently claim that it is! o that ball would automatically become the ball in play (and the 3rd shot, playing 4).

Normally the case I'd agree but virtual certainty may well depend on the lie of the land around the hazard, length of grass etc.....basically, the chance that the ball could be anywhere else but in the hazard. This isn't always easy to determine from the tee but becomes apparent when you approach the area. So a provisional may be appropriate but may still result in the original being deemed in the hazard once all the available evidence is considered.

 

[vkurup]

So is the answer 5 or 6 where the ball was retrieved from a water hazard and put into play again?

 

[Slab]

So is the answer 5 or 6 where the ball was retrieved from a water hazard and put into play again?

As advised it's a 5, what might make it clearer is if you explain why you thought it wasn't a 5
(forget the confusion arising from 'his view' of a 2 shot pen given afterwards as you say you queried his result when he holed out & claimed 5)