Rule 25-1b, golf most interpreted rule????

[Richuk123]

Hi Everyone.......

this rule causes much debate during the winter months.

One of the chaps we played with hit a drive into the rough, which I saw come down with a thud, when we got up there, the ground was so saturated with casual water (min requirement for casual water for me is if you take your stance and water comes up, then that fine), I would also class this as abnormal ground conditions, as because it isn't like this during summer months, hence winter rules etc.....

I was happy that this ball was underground, and as far as I am concerned , rule 25-1b covered him to take relief , without penalty. I was then told by the 3rd member of the party that it's deemed lost as it hadn't plugged on the fairway and it's back to the tee he went, and he couldn't/wouldn't confirm if it plugged, even though 2 of us saw the ball flight (ie not a blind shot) I felt he was being difficult , for some unknown reason and I argued with him for a 30 seconds , while the guy who hit the shot went and played 3 off the tee.

interestingly enough, on the par 3 12th, the guy who was being difficult hit is shot just over the back of the green, which was rough and very wet (casual water as above) and didn't find it, he dropped a ball , claiming casual water (again, as above), which then a huge row blew up on the green............................... :clap::clap:

in a nutshell, according to my knowledge, if a ball is plugged in the rough, and is not found then it must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the abnormal ground condition, if so, then rule 25.1b covers free relief, yet other think a lost ball and back to the tee you go .

What are you views and have any of you had issues which the above ruling?? im guessing the key is what you class as "abnormal ground conditions" which to me is very muddy, soggy, wet ground due to the winter weather (these conditions are not normal, therefore, its Abnormal, which is why clubs throw out preferred lies etc....)

Thanks

Richard

 

[chrisd]

Unless the ball is known, or virtually certain to have gone into a water hazard, if it can't be found within 5 minutes it is a lost ball and there is no entitlement to drop a ball under the circumstances you detail.

 

[Richuk123]

Unless the ball is known, or virtually certain to have gone into a water hazard, if it can't be found within 5 minutes it is a lost ball and there is no entitlement to drop a ball under the circumstances you detail.

A Water Hazard and Casual Water are 2 different things.

No mention of going in a water hazard.

 

[chrisd]

A Water Hazard and Casual Water are 2 different things.

No mention of going in a water hazard.

I know. That's why I said there was no entitlement to a drop under the circumstances you detail

 

[Richuk123]

You Wrote::

Unless the ball is known, or virtually certain to have gone into a water hazard, if it can't be found within 5 minutes it is a lost ball and there is no entitlement to drop a ball under the circumstances you detail.

From The R&A::
25-1c
c. Ball in Abnormal Ground Condition Not Found
It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward an*abnormal ground condition is in such a condition. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the abnormal ground condition. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.
If it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in an abnormal ground condition, the player may take relief under this Rule. If he elects to do so, the spot where the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the*abnormal ground condition must be determined and, for the purpose of applying this Rule, the ball is deemed to lie at this spot and the player must proceed as follows:
(i) Through the Green: If the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the*abnormal ground condition at a spot through the green, the player may substitute another ball, without penalty, and take relief as prescribed in Rule 25-1b

Through the Green??? ------ The whole course except Water Hazards, Teeing Grounds and Putting Greens.

 

[Foxholer]

Unless the ball is known, or virtually certain to have gone into a water hazard, if it can't be found within 5 minutes it is a lost ball and there is no entitlement to drop a ball under the circumstances you detail.

Well, Lost in GUR and Lost in Abnormal Ground Conditions certainly allow for more than you have specified.

The question is really whether the area where the ball is likely to be is 'Abnormal Ground Conditions' and whether it's KVC that it's actually in that area. From the way the OP has described it, it seems to me almost as if itcould be completely the opposite of the way the FC ruled it.I think he could well have been pushing some boundaries!

A thud/splat in semi/first cut is quite likely to signify an embedded ball in AGC, and there's no difference whether the AGC is on the fairway or in the rough. If, however, a ball goes through the green into an area where there's deep rough, there's no way it could be KVC that it either embedded or was lost in AGC (unless the area was a huge puddle) rather than simply lost!

That said, I'm guessing whether the 1st case went into semi/first cut as opposed to deeper rough - where it was simply 'Lost' unless the entire area is a puddle (in which case, it suggests you shouldn't have actually been playing!). And if the 1st case was tee-ed with a Driver, then I'm very dubious about KVC in the actual area!

Have I covered my ass sufficiently? :rolf:

 

[Canary_Yellow]

It's a difficult one. The key for me is whether in both circumstances you could be certain that you were in an abnormal ground conditions scenario - sounds like you were - but also, and crucially, that the ball was lost as a consequence of that ground condition, ie definitely lost in an area that is abnormal rather than just soft.

Without the ball being lost in an actual puddle, that's very difficult to be certain of, especially if the ball is in the rough 200 odd yards away.

I agree though that his inconsistent application of the rules was ridiculous.

 

[Richuk123]

It's a difficult one. The key for me is whether in both circumstances you could be certain that you were in an abnormal ground conditions scenario - sounds like you were - but also, and crucially, that the ball was lost as a consequence of that ground condition, ie definitely lost in an area that is abnormal rather than just soft.

Without the ball being lost in an actual puddle, that's very difficult to be certain of, especially if the ball is in the rough 200 odd yards away.

I agree though that his inconsistent application of the rules was ridiculous.

Casual water is a fun one. Water doesn't have to be visible . if you take your stance and water comes out the ground then that's classed as casual water.

Both balls were 1st cut, not deep rough and the ground was more than just soft, all down to our wonderful weather. Was got me what for a few holes he clearly though I was a cheat, yet calls the rule himself and thats what bothered me. Its a muni course, get a ton of traffic and get very boggy,wet. Its borderline playable.

I can accept losing balls but when you spend most your round looking for plugged balls in a fairway then its becomes a bit silly.

 

[Canary_Yellow]

I know what casual water is - my point was that it's not easy to tell whether the ball is KVC to be lost in an abnormal ground condition when it was last seen 200 yards away.

Anyway, sounds like this guy was a bit of a nuisance and his application of the rules suspect!

 

[Richuk123]

I know what casual water is - my point was that it's not easy to tell whether the ball is KVC to be lost in an abnormal ground condition when it was last seen 200 yards away.

Anyway, sounds like this guy was a bit of a nuisance and his application of the rules suspect!

Sorry canary, I wasn't questioning whether you knew what casual water was, just making a point in general. Apologise if you thought otherwise.

 

[Canary_Yellow]

No need to apologise. My reply was unnecessarily abrupt - I didn't mean it to sound pointed.

Were you marking this guys card? I'd have been tempted to refuse to sign it!

 

[CMAC]

Well, Lost in GUR and Lost in Abnormal Ground Conditions certainly allow for more than you have specified.

The question is really whether the area where the ball is likely to be is 'Abnormal Ground Conditions' and whether it's KVC that it's actually in that area. From the way the OP has described it, it seems to me almost as if itcould be completely the opposite of the way the FC ruled it.I think he could well have been pushing some boundaries!

A thud/splat in semi/first cut is quite likely to signify an embedded ball in AGC, and there's no difference whether the AGC is on the fairway or in the rough. If, however, a ball goes through the green into an area where there's deep rough, there's no way it could be KVC that it either embedded or was lost in AGC (unless the area was a huge puddle) rather than simply lost!

That said, I'm guessing whether the 1st case went into semi/first cut as opposed to deeper rough - where it was simply 'Lost' unless the entire area is a puddle (in which case, it suggests you shouldn't have actually been playing!). And if the 1st case was tee-ed with a Driver, then I'm very dubious about KVC in the actual area!

Have I covered my ass sufficiently? :rolf:

I started reading this (as your replies are usually pretty spot on) but I give up when people insert acronyms all the way through that arent obvious or take ages to work out!....

KVC
AGC

a few seconds more to help old people like me scan a post quicker would be very helpfull thanks.

Posts like this (and you're not alone) really GOMT :smirk:


rant over- sorry

 

[duncan mackie]

I was beaten by the titles to the thread

You appear to be confusing things with the shift between what's AGC and where the ball is.

To get relief under 25-1c you need to know where the the ball is (K or VC) in order to be able to assess whether it's AGC.

Hitting your ball into an mixed area of soft muddy rough with puddles and being unable to find it isn't sufficient to meet the criteria in 25-1c - which are clearly laid out.

If you are looking at it from the perspective of ' I hit by ball into an area where there was some casual water but we couldn't find it so can I claim relief under 25-1c then you are probably playing the wrong game. "very muddy, soggy, wet ground due to the winter weather" clearly does not meet the definition of AGC in the rules, and decision 25/1 reinforces this. The corollary to this is that even if a ball is seen to bury itself in the middle of a soft fairway it cannot benefit from 25-1c in the absence of an area that meets the definition of casual water or GUR.

 

[Foxholer]

I started reading this (as your replies are usually pretty spot on) but I give up when people insert acronyms all the way through that arent obvious or take ages to work out!....

KVC
AGC

a few seconds more to help old people like me scan a post quicker would be very helpfull thanks.

Posts like this (and you're not alone) really GOMT :smirk:


rant over- sorry

Sorry CMAC!? :rofl:

I figured KVC (Know or Virtually Certain) was well enough known. And it should have been pretty obvious that AGC was Abnormal Ground Conditions.

I'll go back to writing it all out once and putting the abbrev. in brackets afterwards just for you.

@Duncan...

I believe that the OP mentioned water being visible after stance, which is sufficient for Casual Water by 25/1 and the Definition of Casual Water.Section I

Q.Is soft, mushy earth casual water?

A.No. Soft, mushy earth is not casual water unless water is visible on the surface before or after the player takes his stance – see Definition of "Casual Water."

Casual Water
“Casual water’’ is any temporary accumulation of water on the course that is not in a water hazard and is visible before or after the player takes his stance. Snow and natural ice, other than frost, are either casual water or loose impediments, at the option of the player. Manufactured ice is an obstruction. Dew and frost are not casual water.

A ball is in casual water when it lies in or any part of it touches the casual water.

 

[BrizoH71]

I assume questionable areas weren't marked with blue stakes?

We have a few areas at our place that are marked/roped with blue stakes around overly soft/muddy areas where a ball that goes into the area in question is a prime candidate to be a goner. We can drop without penalty at these areas.